00:00 Introductions , mechanics, how to comment, more about our guests, etc.

04:59 Tom starts pointing out that any progress we have made individually will be put to the test when we enter an intimate relationship – in all 4 quadrants.

06:37 Martin responds with aligning our values with our actions when with others as opposed to alone. Differences between UL and LL.

10:19 Tom promotes Sandial integral groups where people get a chance to work on emerging higher values with friends and colleagues before risking it with an intimate partner.

12:08 Heidi asks what a partner can be in regards to one’s own growth. Tom responds. Tom backs up to look at what he often sees in “integral” partners who are tied to a partner who may be at a different stage and may need to know how to promote more symmetry in their relationship. Often it’s a matter of a healthy Green “person” getting glimpses thru roll playing, for example.

14.56 Martin rephrases the difference as a first vs. third person experience with the levels. And frames this with his personal dating experiences which often ends when a lower level person feels “left out” and can’t talk with him.
20:05 So what’s in it for the 2nd tier person? Tom says that the higher level person may create a flow experience that the other may participate in, but not maintain or be cìable to recreate when alone.  We need to be more inspirational than judgemental! Don’t start with what they’re lacking! Tom roll plays often the role of the partner so the partner can see what he/she is doing and show the state as a growth medium.

24:12 Martin refers to one of the causes of the fall out between Wilber and Beck.

26:30 Martin talks about changing hat colors (no, really!) to demonstrate different levels in workshop participants.  He goes on to describe how he sets up clear expectations and boundaries in his dating life. Rules are different for him because he’s NOT a therapist.
31:28 Tom tells Martin that he is very brave to take on pre/trans confused relationships.  Many borderline examples. And goes on with UR chemistry expressed in LL  interpretations of the chemistry.
35:22 Heidi describes the difficulties and excitement of life with a borderline and Tom refers to how Warren Farrell explains this phenomenon.

39:00 Martin is including in his new book the shame (usually the) man feels in a relationship with a borderline or histrionic person.

44:30 Martin talks about setting limits and how important it is to stick with them.

47:13 Tom says who we pick is a mirror of our own developmental stage or complementary function.  How to tell if it’s not just the same old story.

49:54 Differences between northern and southern California values. Catholics are the progressives in Orange County!

51:20 Martin “pitches” his new book (in progress).  The need for transcendental purpose in relationship via our capacities for empathy (goodness), cognitive intelligence (truth), creativity (beauty), and kinesthetics (creating function) all of which affects what we can do together rather than alone.

57:23 Do we need the same passion?  Some disagreement here!

1:02:00 Tom hops in, pointing out that we each must grow INDIVIDUALLY before we can participate in these higher purposes. Many of us can connect more deeply with someone other than a spouse.  More disagreement!

1:06:00 Last words from Martin, stating that couples need to create communities!

1:08:00 Last words from Tom, stating that “we hold these speculations loosely.”

1:09:00 Thank you’s, good-byes and plans to stay connected.

How to contact:

Tom’s website is http://mpccares.com

and you can find his papers that were mentioned at http://academia.eu
Martin’s website is http://integralrelationship.com