Tammy: Holding space Anna (West Yorkshire): patriarchy is embedded in the language.
Monia: terminology of WW I and II in particular in German. Anna: Wholeness: one part of the whole is always a part only. Gertraud: When you want change and the others don’t double your efforts. Empowerment – a specific female quality. Listening.
With patriarchal religions employed blame as a tool. Violating integrity. Blame is a poisened pill. (Monia’s vision: Adam was a coward. Hiding behind the woman)
Tammy: How do we allow the leader to emerge in a group? How to hold space for a collective intelligence to arise, to learn to share power.
Decision making: the iceberg – only 4% is known of what is going on. Standing in one’s integrity. Witnesing the integrity of others.
Talking about angels. How to define? Fields of higher consciousness?
In this episode the women of WOMEN MATTERS take a look on 2017 and where they are now in relation to what they named as intention and outlook in the first session of the year.
Generally they are interested in::
What resources do we have which we can use to meet the present state of the world? How does that which we see and hear happening impact our lives and what can we do to meet our personal difficulties as well as the challenges in our nations? What resources do we need to develop in ourselves and which ones do we already have, ready to go? How can we act meaningfully in the world to help to get back into a state of balance?
A follow up article written after our conversation: Me too? – a Consideration about Patriarchy (click to read)
Peterson is also very much involved in – or better against – the “mean green meme”, the neo-marxist movement inside of society, especially in the universities, but if you dont ‘appreciate it, just don’t watch it.
He has studied Hitler and Stalin for all his career and he knows how these things show up and develop.
I actually do appreciate his courage to stand up against totalitarian trends in our western society. I grew up too near to East Germany and went there often, I know how people feel when they fear to speak their mind…..
Thank you again for what you do to keep up the nexus. Without which there is no “WE”, in Ken Wilbers map of consciousness the Lower left quadrant – shared language, interests, culture. And of course Jordan Peterson – one of the most intelligent thinkers and a forerunner of rationality. Love, Monia
Thank you Heidi for the links. Yes, an interesting guy, very impressive and quite a performer. This model of ‘teaching’, what we could call ‘top down’ teaching, is geared to producing celebrities, and fits nicely into the patriarchal paradigm. No room for interaction or discussion. I found I could only take so much of it, though I’m sure there are some good ideas to be found.
MONIA (to Anna)
To feel comfortable with Peterson a small dosage is best. To be fluent in English – as you definitely are 😉 – helps, but there are dialogs with other High IQ personalities, where even my fluency is hard tested to keep up. However, he is one of the first lecturers where you can actually see that he thinks while talking to an audience of definitely less experience than he has. Which may be a hierarchy, but one I can accept.
HEIDI (to Anna)
Thank you for the feedback. For me this type of lecture is exactly what I need to learn deep stuff and also how to think things through. I think there is a place for all types of teaching and at this point – especially when on video – I am not interested in learning in a peer group about things which nobody knows better than myself. For me, peer group (not “top-down” as you call it) is very appropriate to digest new learning and often probably also when being together in person with facilitators who know where to go.
I fully agree with Monia: “Jordan Peterson – one of the most intelligent thinkers and a forerunner of rationality.” and I don’t dare to ask somebody like him to allow me to ask permanent questions which I would need to ask for my learning in a “non-patriarchal” way, as you call it. (btw. I don’t think we should mix all these terms together with modalities of doing, especially when we connect with them a negative judgement.)
I myself listen to the info – and then I can ask someone or discuss the topics with peers (Which I really would love to do in a bigger circle!)
Anyways, reading Ken Wilber and listening to Jordan Peterson: both has allowed my personal growth in ways that otherwise I don’t think it could have happened, because both speak to my inclination to see things in a rational way and both include the other aspects of being human without falling into the trap of assuming to have the only possible way of seeing the world – with other words: they are integral thinkers.
I wish you all the benefit of learning from exceptional people, like those two and certainly many others…
MARK (to Anna)
Dear Anna, just a quick clarification, Peterson spends a lot of screen time answering audience questions.
ANNA (to Heidi)
There are many aspects of life within this patriarchal structure which are nourishing and support our growth. We could not have got to where we are without them, and it is good to acknowledge our dependency on them, and our indebtedness to them.
Nevertheless it is also useful to see how, while supporting us, these aspects can bring with them patterns of behaviour which can undermine our trust in our own abilities, and lead us to overvalue the contribution of others. Notice, I am not saying that these things are of no value, but they are couched in a framework which quite subtly can encourage us to become dependent on ‘experts’. Possibly even to feel that this person is so elevated, so far from an ordinary human being, that like you mentioned in your email, you would not dare to ask a question.
Thank you Mark for the clarification. But asking questions is not the same as peer group discussion. It still leaves the speaker in the superior position. Our whole education system is based on some people – teachers – knowing more than others, which gives them a superior status. This has become ‘normal’. We do not ordinarily question it. But there is no fundamental reason why superior knowledge should give superior status. In Patriarchy differences of status are extremely important. Knowledge, wealth, colour of skin, gender, age, all give rise to different status. This can prevent us from not only seeing the justice of treating every person as precious, but also from asserting our own essential needs and abilities.
HEIDI (to Anna)
Thanks for your reply and I agree with much of what you said.
There is some clarification to be made here: It is not that I don’t “dare” to ask him my questions because I would see Jordan Pterson as superior to me, but I would not do that in such an extensive way as I would need to learn from ONLY asking questions to somebody who knows more than myself, because that person can spend his time better than answering the same question seperately to many people. That’s why he gives lectures. A teacher should know more than his students – and that gives him a higher “seat” in the natural hierarchy of knowing more in a specific area. That doesn’t mean that he/she is “superior” in all areas or that he/she has automatically a higher “status” (which normally is connected with having power OVER and not power FOR)
The other thing: Natural hierarchy and power hierarchy are two completely different things.
I think we are gone quite far in dis-entangeling the status from the quality of what people do. Even within certain professions people don’t automatically assume that the “boss” does his job better than one of his employees. As for instance in medicine: if I need surgery I would go to the best surgeon in the field – and that is often NOT the leader of the department in the hospital (I say this because I know the issue from a friend medical doctor). If I want to know more about how normal people can become ideologues or act in evil ways the best thing is to watch Petersons lectures, maybe also read some books, but I wouldn’t want to be guided by the present prevailing sociological ideas which talk only about patriarchy, power and discrimination – while using power and discrimination quite frankly themselves without admitting it and probably even without noticing it. This is what is part of the “Mene green meme”, named by Ken Wilber.
It is not everything based on power in human life, at least not on POWER OVER. We need to make this very important distinction for not throwing the baby out together with the bathwater… And we need to embrace co-operative ways to come out of the chaos and create a better society – which is not what the radical forces on both sides presently try to implement.
ANNA (to Heidi)
Thank you Heidi for a most interesting discussion. I will have to ponder ‘Natural Hierarchies’ a little more.
Anyway we are agreed that cooperation is needed to move forward.
Heidi (to Anna)
I am glad you got something out of our exchange.
I am wondering if I can post our conversation under our video in the website? It may be interesting to others, too.
ANNA (to Heidi)
I think that’s a really good idea! Yes, it might encourage others to comment. Xx
About Tammy Lea Meyer
Tammy Lea Meyer
Tammy was born, works and lives on unceded Coast Salish territory, in a community home in South Vancouver, Canada. A media experimentalist, social change agent and systems thinker, Tammy is passionate about democracy, the development of a people-centred economy, and supporting the emergent shift of social and economic systems. Tammy believes that through collaboration and conversation, we can knit together the initiatives that already exist to design a deeply integrated commons. Tammy is passionate about holding space and fostering the voices of community members to share their concerns, their hopes, and their ideas for a more just and sustainable world.
You can check out her work on Medium and youtube.
About Heidi – Adelheid Hörnlein
A native German and living in Italy for the past 30 years. I have an MA in communication science, was a professional singer, voice teacher, voice therapist before I was licensed in Gestalt Counseling and Transformative Coaching (Approach: ‘Feminine Power’ and related). I am also licensed as transformative leader. I am holding seminars and courses, live and online. My passion is 1:1 coaching for whatever difficulties people encounter in life, especially regarding relationships, but not only. AND I am passionate in doing live events like this one and HELP OTHERS TO BE CONFIDENT AND SHOW UP in public to bring their message into the world.
About Gertraud Wegst
Gertraud was born as the middle one of 7 children in Germany though her heart swims in international waters. Master coach, trainer and change midwife with experience in the mission of being source of apprecitation for people and organizations she believes that the people’s past and present are rich with positive experiences and insights and can be an infinite source for development, performance and success, if they are listened to carefully and with appreciation. Supporting this process with her colleagues of The Appreciators in personal and group coaching and training for leaders and in companies and with various co-operations in networks, communities of practice up to the Unity in Diversity Appreciative Inquiry process for midwifing a system of influence that nurtures celebrates, and energizes work that mattters and elnivens makes her heart sing. http://www.theappreciators.com/articl…
About Anna Harris
Anna grew up in London, BA Sociology, then worked with autistic children, and trained as a child psychotherapist. I worked for 15 years, but could not accept the power relations implied, or the attempt to shape a child to ‘fit in’ to an insane society. My discomfort in unequal power relations, either within the family, school, workplace, institution, or government led to following a spiritual teacher for over 25 years, where I felt more at home. My interest in child rearing practices was rekindled with reading Alice Miller, http://www.alice-miller.com/en/the-truth-will-set-you-free/ which led to discovering the work of neurobiologist Darcia Narvez. http://darcianarvaez.com/about My article, http://www.sublimemagazine.com/healthy-birth-healthy-earth explores the link she describes in her book ‘Neurobiology and The Development of Morality’, between experiences of birth, infancy, and later mental illness, giving rise to many of the problems humanity is facing today. Retirement gives me the freedom to follow my real interests, changing society to more truly reflect the love that created us and that provides the abundance we have around us.
About Luna Ceovelli
True Health Warrior, Wellbeing Ninja – Her own journey through a life-threatening parasitic infection and learning to recover and heal body mind and spirit has led her to the work she does today. Luna is the founder of ONE Daily Wellness and co-founder of the Women’s Wealth Network in Vancouver, Canada, she is a Certified Holistic Health Coach and Nutritional Counsellor. She works with clients in private practice coaching into the areas of reframing personal health, addictions, and directly addressing systemic underlying root cause issues. She believes in personal empowerment first and the body’s divine wisdom and innate ability to heal. She speaks on our intrinsic and intimate connection with the natural world; sacred living water, deep ecology, our indigenous roots and returning to right relationship and stewardship of the land and ourselves.
Luna is committed to a life of learning and continuos development, recognizing that every individual client and person she meets is also a sacred teacher. In this way she wishes to remain rooted in her humility, her human imperfections and her humble offering of service. She’s been on the front lines of transformation, knee dropping awe inspired awakening and dark nights of the soul have guided her to an engaged and continuous dialogue with what is. Deepening her practice with Family Systems, she is a student of Bert Hellinger’s Systemic Constellation work through her masterful teacher, Jan Hull, She is also a student of Acharya Aman, YogaJyoti and the Vedic Jyotish Counselling System. Luna lives and works on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples, whose land and elders continue to deeply inform her work.
About Monia Fruehwirth
Monika (Monia) is speaking out of the experience of 7 decades of an intense life which was dedicated to the evolution of consciousness in herself and others.
Monika is a true leader. Thanks to her constant efforts the philosophy of Ken Wilber was introduced and spread in Germany. Her way of adopting leadership was – and is – translating innumerable amounts of texts, publishing articles, editing print media and creating the German Integral Association together with some like minded people.
Monika was one of the first women in the German-speaking Integral scene – which at first was very “head biased” – the enthusiasm about a brilliant theory. She introduced into the Integral Community the “Feminine Integral Consciousness Field”, a self-organized group of women who tried to translate the theory into their everyday life practice. My friendship with her began with being part of this group of women and their attempt to find a FEMININE WAY of bringing the Integral WORLDVIEW out into the WORLD.