Summary

The discussion explores loneliness, emotional connections, and the impact of the pandemic on social isolation among women, emphasizing the importance of community and relationships.###

Highlights-

🗨️ Women discussed their personal experiences with loneliness and connection.-

🌧️ Monia shared about the aftermath of flooding in Austria and its political implications.-

🎉 Christine is excited about upcoming family events, including a wedding.-

🤝 Victoria talked about her studies on aging and loneliness.-

🌍 The group reflected on the global impact of the pandemic on social interactions.-

📚 Heidi emphasized the importance of deep conversations versus superficial ones.-

🔄 The recurring meetings strengthen their connections and reduce loneliness.###

Key Insights-

💬 **Importance of Connection**: Emotional and spiritual connections are vital for combating loneliness. Building relationships creates a sense of belonging. –

🌐 **Global Experiences**: The pandemic has affected everyone, leading to collective trauma and increased feelings of isolation, highlighting the need for community support.-

🧠 **Coping Mechanisms**: Engaging in conversations and sharing experiences can alleviate feelings of loneliness and foster deeper connections among participants.-

📖 **Individual Differences**: People experience loneliness differently; some enjoy solitude while others crave social interaction, indicating varying personal needs.-

🎭 **Cultural Influences**: The way individuals express their feelings about loneliness is often shaped by cultural backgrounds and norms, affecting how they seek connection.-

🕰️ **Recurring Engagements**: Regular meetings and interactions, whether online or in person, strengthen relationships and provide a platform for open discussions, reducing feelings of isolation.-

🎉 **Community Resilience**: The ability to share experiences and support one another in difficult times illustrates the resilience of community bonds, fostering hope and connection.

women mattes in September the end of September 2024. and we thought about talking about loneliness as Dina reminded me unfortunately she is not visible today there is some bug with a video camera too bad because we are missing your nice face we will have to find out uh just listen listen listen for me it’s more difficult to to listen and understand when I don’t see the person somehow the movement of the of the mouth makes it easier for me to understand anyway we start with the check in uh yeah Gina that’s good leaveit like this okay how you how it is monia would you would you to start well um monia from Vienna in Austria and the weather is has calmed down the rain has stopped the flooding has stopped but there’s a lot of work still to do because some of the districts were really severely damaged and yeah it will cost a lot of money millions and millions and some like a a butcher a very ex an excellent meat producer the whole everything was flooded and even his trucks were flooded so it’s it’s really extremedamage and we will have elections um next Sunday and uh yeah it’s it’s really strange uh politics are just amazing sometimes and everybody thinks they will he will win and all other think think he won’t win and so it’s just yeah it keeps us on our toes depending on whether we try to to exclude almost majority of the population because they are rtists which isn’t it’s just that they are not left and uh but because there is an other party that is in the middle so they have to be right and but but you can’t be right youhave to be extremely rtist so it’s uh yeah and this is what I guess all of Europe is concerned with it right now and one of our former C chancellors said that to exclude a part of the population is just wrong you can’t exclude anybody because in in particular if they have almost a majority of the people so that’s uh yeah it’s very it’s very unsettling and uh I wondering about post Democratic situations this was a topic that came up in our recent Salon integral Salon uh what is post Democratic is thisactually something that’s better the way we now live democracy maybe it’s so we still have to find out and this is will be a topic in our next interal so long uh yeah I’m fine my husband isn’t too we were out on the street today and shopping and going to the bank and it really it’s strous for him and that upsets me too but that’s the way it is and we are going to manage Christine I’m passing over to you you are still in the morning and fine it’s the morning here in carlbad California and uh yeah anotherday another week um things are pretty good here uh we’re waiting for our election but we’ve got longer to wait um if people don’t die before it happens I don’t know maybe I don’t the the craziness is just almost unspeakable but um what else uh I don’t know getting ready to be out of town for a little bit um we’re going to Las Vegas for a few days because uh Tom’s college football team is playing in Las Vegas so we wanted to go see them they’re his college is on the East Coast so it would it’s an unusual opportunityto be able to see the football team so we’re going to go to Las Vegas for a few days to see that and then we come back for just a few days and uh Anise is getting married in Massachusetts so we’ll be off to the east coast and stay with my sister and see a lot of family and friends back there so looking forward to that um wanted to see uh suzan uh cook reuer but she is going to be at the Africa conference because we she’s in the town next to where my sister lives so we’ve often gone to see her um but she’ll she’s in South Africafor the conference um and also touring around so that’s good because she had said years ago she was going to stop traveling so a good thing that she is able to um to do that I think she’s 76 77 at this point so she’s yeah that’s good um yeah not a whole lot else I’ve been trying to I’m I’m putting my toes in the water to participate in uh helping with the election uh phone banking um I’m going to do uh training this week I don’t know that I’ll be able to do it as a pole Watcher in Nevada but that’s another state and I don’t know ifI’ll even qualifi to do that but I’m going to investigate it and see because I just feel like if this election doesn’t if if Trump gets reelected I will be very mad at myself that I didn’t participate or try maybe feudly to do something uh to help the Harris campaign so anyway um and I will pass off to line thank you uh yeah the election really dominates here as well I mean when I say as well I mean uh based on what you said monia it’s it’s ever presentes and there is that especially from that integralperspective what might follow democracy now that the fear I know this is sort of not exactly my personal life but it it becomes it feels very personal because it’s terrifying to think that in our situation it feels like what would follow democracy is back to autocracy and that’s the real fear you know um it’s like what Germany dealt with in the 1930s you know we have a we have fascism On The Rise and it’s really truly terrifying um monia it’s interesting that your group was considering from a more open-minded situation what mightfollow democracy and that I think that’s a really important question but in our country it feels like we’d be going backwards and we have left behind it was like you were saying that one of the people running for office says we can’t leave anybody behind and that’s really true I mean the far right in this country I think um came from a lot of neglect you know uh and a lot of trauma and our our nation shrank the institutions that could have supported them so that all feels very much in the air and very very scaryso you might find us knocking at your doors and we’re all moving to Europe trying to get my EU passport lined up so that to facilitate this but anyway on a personal level I’m putting my house up for sale and that should happen in mid October so the next time I speak with you I may be homeless who knows uh at least for a while so um and it’s a big decision because uh part of what I leave behind is remnants of my married life and so that becomes you know kind of a psychological step and a kind of agrowth step uh and that feels like a really good thing to do even though I can’t seem to find a place I like so I’m not going to worry about that I’ll put my stuff in storage and I’ll go sleep on people’s couches for a while I don’t or rent a place you know so it’s a lot of sudden activity and preoccupation and part of me loves having all that stuff to do and you know part of me is wondering if this is the right thing so I carry that hope on one shoulder doubt on the other and that’s where I’m at and I will pass it on toHeidi okay thank you yeah I mean Europe is not better we are already in a pre fascist State pre pre totalitarian uh governments uh so I don’t know it seems to be worldwide and uh also all this election stuff it seems to be ridiculous in some way and so I I’m I’m curious mon do you do this online then I will come and join you this Salo talk about the post Democratic we’re doing it on Zoom yes you can invite me you’re very welcome I’ll send you the link okay as soon as I have it because it’s usually posted twoweeks before great yeah I’m take a note okay and to me I’m I’m quite fine I’m still in the same situation as before people come and go and my dream to have people stay has not yet come come through my olives are have four more weeks and then I start with the olive Harvest and I love to be outside so my vegetable for the winter is already planted and starts growing and um yeah all together I’m fine I have to say really it’s it’s good with all the preoccupations going on but they seem to be on another level they seem to be somesomehow present but not touching me too much so yeah I would uh give over to Gina can we cannot see and I see also Victoria has come I hope your camera is working because din’s not working so first Tina and then you okay and then you can put the video on thanks Heidi um so yes uh it is a a foggy day here in Victoria we we have been promised uh uh good warm weather in 24 degrees range but it seems that that’s not uh coming any time soon I’ve had a interesting week uh I finished week three at school and I think I’madjusting to it uh it is different but I’m looking for different ways to cope with that and one of the ways we coped is we took all the plants that we bought last week and started getting them to the Garden on Saturday so that is helping our garden recover from the winter kill that we had uh early this year yeah so I’m you know I’m a little tired but I’m happy to be here with uh all of you and to have this conversation and to just sort of be with people in terms of Elections we have uh two going on so at ourprovincial level uh this this fall and federal next fall we’re we’re a little bit different uh in Canada in that we’re very concerned about what happens in the States but at the same time we also feel like there’s some erosion of what we consider our basic rights but we’re far more subtle about it so it sneaks up on you versus is right in your face so we we have a far um more uh influence uh from our our first Nations our indigenous in and mate people uh and how we’re coming to terms with reconciliation and our country and thatis that is going to cause people on both sides to be quite uncomfortable and we’re not really sure where that’s all going to end it’s a challenge and uh occasionally I’ve thought about gosh my my uh my son’s in the UK I’m like maybe I’ll just go live with my son but you know for now we’ll stick with Canada because we’ve actually got it pretty good here okay and I’m passing it over to Victoria is that right yeah there you go Victoria nice to meet you can you open your camera Victoria hi yeah I’m in the middle of aa huge project here so I may have to go on and off um sound and Camera um unfortunately it’s a there’s a lot going on right now um I haven’t met Gina before I’m not I’m not sure um Gina could you introduce yourself too or or is I thought we I thought we actually did meet now I see you I actually recall you oh um it was two weeks ago oh I’m sorry okay it’s okay don’t worry about it uh so Gina from Victoria I’ve known Heidi for many many years through her wisdom Factory group um and I’m going you may remember I’mgoing to school I’ve re-entered school at the Master’s level and so I’m integrating into a very diverse uh University studying aging and uh learning as a way to deal with loneliness depression and Social isolation for older adults wow fabulous okay well I apologize if I met you before that’s okay must that’s the problem today because maybe if I saw you yeah I’m very visual you can’t see me yeah sorry about that that’s my camera I’ve been playing with it but I can’t I’ve done everything I’m just not g to be disruptive anymoreokay well anyway thank you um so let’s see uh yeah I’m I’m I was in a in a um I’m taking a c well it’s just a four-week course um Be not Afraid um taught by Peggy and Larry what what you were frozen continue go you can’t hear me no we could couldn’t for a moment but now we can oh okay oh all right it’s probably the room I’m in um well all the rooms are noisy I’m try I tried to find the least noisy room right now um okay let me know if I wave or something if I freeze again or I well okay can you hear me now yeah yeahgo no yes yes okay um okay um so oh so I’m taking this course called be on afraid and um and it’s all about uh well it’s a Buddhist it’s a Buddhist couple that worked with tignan for 25 years they’re the teachers um and her approach is totally about somatic experiencing and getting rid of trauma through somatic exercises and interventions and his whole approach is very very high intellectual spiritual philosophical so they’re really interesting couple um in many ways he’s African-American and she’s um comes froma Catholic Midwestern background so in every way they’re like poar opposites are really fabulous um anyway what I realized yesterday and I’m realizing it again today unfortunately is that um I’m operating at like panic mode all the time I’m and my level of anxiety is so high I’m having to work like minute by minute just to keep my feet on the ground it’s really um so so it was interesting when Lorraine twice you said the word terrified and I and I immediately just like went into I mean I’m not saying it to blame you at all II I know exactly you know I’m I’m I’m here too in the thick of the pre-election anxiety um but it I’m just I I’m realizing that I need to do a lot of work right now to to keep myself um balanced and grounded and interestingly enough um there there’s so much drama going on in my immediate immediate situation that the political situation seems very remote to me at the moment even though I’m I’m obviously um anyway that just occurred to me when you said the word terrified twice I thought I thought well I do feelterrified but what am what exactly am I terrified of um and actually the yeah the only other I wanted to say um is that because I’ve been mulling over it now for for the last three days um I was in another one of my groups and um and was put in a breakout group with a woman who um who said that she believes that the whole world is suffering from trauma because of um the pandemic and she said something really interesting um I mean maybe everyone said it at some point but it really struck me and and sank in andI’ve been thinking about it for quite a while the last few days she said um we we you know we deny grief anyway in our culture and we never give time and I’ve lived through that and my daughters lived through that and that’s why we’re still you know still battling to come out from under the trauma of the the losses we’ve experienced the the grief because we’re never given time to grieve in our culture it’s just move on get going get back to work get back to school get back to you know daily lifeand um and so that what this woman said that really struck me was she said our whole planet is going through this and it doesn’t matter what the circumstances were sorry that’s water I’m in my laundry room um she said it doesn’t matter what the circumstances um were for us personally during the pandemic we the whole planet went through it in one way or another in one experience or another and and as soon as it was uh possible to get back out and to work you know then the masks were off or whatever it was just go youknow get back catch up with where you left off you know catch up for L time make more money go back to work and so um so she attributes the all the hostility and anger and rage and frustration that that one sees at least here I don’t know what it’s like in Europe but um she used Starbucks as an example she said that uh because I guess she goes there every day and she said before the pandemic people were just falling over themselves oh how can I help you today what would you like and you know the really the customerfriendly thing and smiling and and gracious and explaining what the things were the choices and she said now you go she goes in to the same Starbucks and all the employees are huddled in a corner complaining they’re complaining about the employer about the customers the customers are so obnoxious they don’t like the customer or they’re tired or they’re whatever and she said the whole the whole mood is so dramatically different and this is the same in her experience the same place that she’s been going for years so anyway I justwanted sorry that was a really long check-in but um I I just wanted to um respond to this this the the terrified sorry to keep saying that but you said it twice and I thought if she says it the third time I may have to leave the call okay thanks everybody I have a drama right here now with flooding so I’ll be I’ll go off thank you okay so I’m here but you gave me the the possibility to tie back to the topic because it’s not only the pandemic as you call that uh it is long before that we went into separation separationseparation separation and this uh covid time it was accelerating the the separation of people you know the the um in in the distance between one and the other should be a meter or two or something I mean more extreme you cannot separate people from each other you know and before already uh people were very lonely especially older people and with this what they did I don’t know how it was in America but in Germany when the first cases of uh covid seem to have happened uh then uh old people died alone in the old people’s home and werenot allowed the the family was not allowed to to to assist them I mean more loneliness cannot be when when in the dying you you are not uh cannot say goodbye to your your family and I found this really very very very cool so Gina we would you want to to to say something about this loneliness topic you are yeah so I think that what I found really uh challenging is that this was apparently for our and I’m going to use the term seniors because it’s more the scop can probably handle that um the fact that not only were they kept fromtheir family they were kept from each other so they were essentially put into social isolation in their room and the most contact even if you’re on a ground floor you you could touch through a window but you couldn’t actually experience human touch so loneliness took on not just real access to people but not even within the confines of this restricted uh setting and and the people who were fighting and fighting and fighting to bring um to change those rules I mean caregivers could go in and they could uh put on protective clothingmuch like uh we do in icus but that wasn’t going to be enough and yet the damage that we’ve done to to those people plus the access of their children and their grandchildren not to have that those conversations normal conversations with um their Elders I and the fact that we didn’t fight that that this was for our own good and we had to collectively respect something for our own good like we wouldn’t even let children play on playground equipment anyways it it just it just the fact that we didn’t uh that we didn’thave a stronger voice it concerns me that somebody’s the state is telling us what is our good when in fact I think the damage is actually irreparable for older people and I think that as you say uh we’re all having a real entry re-entry uh Challenge and I don’t think that people appreciate that so I think to uh to Victoria’s point it assumed that you could just go back to normal quote normal so yeah that’s my thought but anyway all these experiences and this especially leaves a trauma in in in in everybodyeven in US I mean we have changed every one of us has changed by this um how do you say extreme ruling of our totalitarian States I say that very um uh how how do you say drastically but that word totalitarian measurements which they have imposed on almost everywhere in places like Italy or even maybe in Africa and other places they find a way to go around it you know and uh I did certainly to to not um to to continue my life let’s say in other words uh but yeah the loneliness I could feel it too I had my animals here no but Ididn’t go to certain uh places where they ask masks because I was strictly against masks and strict so I put myself out of uh the still possible communication because I don’t want to talk with people who I don’t see the mouth so as I said before Gina is for me it’s much more difficult to to understand uh without seeing the mouth the people faces of people anyway but my loneliness during life I I know that I have a lot of loneliness in me since childhood because I was not right in some way so and I was different in thefamily and that’s automatically creating loneliness but I think also my sister and my brothers have this ground feeling of being left alone you know after the war the parents were still shocked uh from what had happened they didn’t talk about it and they didn’t grief about it and we are the generation who grew up in silence but also in distance they they were not really near our parents I don’t know how it is with monia she all still experienced some some some war no War uh years so it is not only the co time is acollective experience but it’s um also in in war maybe not but I don’t know my personal experience is this so I would like to know what your take on this is on on loneliness and how do you well Heidi you are of course right I had a lonely childhood but I was overprotected by my mother and my grandmothers and listening to you uh I noticed I’m not lonely anymore uh contrary I am swamped with attention from everybody the family uh my friends and I have to sort of fend for myself to get some space to be by myselfuh of course my husband and I are together 24 hours a day and he then sits here where I’m now sitting now in the study and I’m in the living room or on the balcony uh because otherwise uh we would be just yeah it’s I don’t mind being by myself when I don’t find it lonely when I’m by myself self um and as a matter of fact we now started to invite people for conversations to our home because my husband doesn’t go out anymore quite hardly and we had quite unusual conversations uh because I tried tointroduce this kind of uh letting somebody talk and then let it sink in and then you respond to that and they were not used to that but we had a really very deep conversations so maybe I’m just stirring against the whole uh movement as it is now because it’s not my my experience um yeah I was uh recommending just to Victoria a book I just read and it’s really fascinating it’s by someone who is very depressive and he had several breakdowns and he’s called M hike and it’s notes from a nervous Planet becauseit says the whole planet is very very as you mentioned it very very uptight and uh as a matter of fact we had a soccer game yesterday today and it it when it ended there was so much fighting on the by the fans on the playground and they used fire and bomb it’s ridiculous so it’s this is now a generation that never experienced the war as you said and uh yeah it’s really you can get very apprehensive about how things will develop okay that’s just my take on loneliness uh as I said uh being by myself and loneliness is differentso uh maybe we could just distill what makes us feel lonely if you could try uh Christine what what makes somebody feel lonely um probably not having uh emotional or spiritual connection with anything I mean because being alone is different than a lot of people tolerate being alone just fine um I don’t mind being alone but um loneliness is more like feeling you don’t have connection maybe friends are not responsive um just feeling a drift and I as people were talking I was thinking for myself I’ve got uhfomo and I don’t know if you guys know what fomo is but it is f m o f m o it stands for fear of missing out and this is one of the says that the kids have which uh you know is basically you want to do stuff you want to be a part of things you don’t want to be left out you want to be a part of things um and I definitely have fomo but I don’t you know it’s interesting and I don’t mind doing things by myself but I want to have experiences so it’s not that every time I want to do something it’s that I’m Desiring to get away fromloneliness but I do want to feel like I have a life that has some Vitality some connections some enjoyment some Pleasures um and when I hear about things going on that I’m not a part of I get fomo so there’s a difference I guess the I’m going to go back to what you asked mon which I guess is just not feeling a connection makes us feel lonely like we don’t like things are going on we have this perception that people are doing things people are connected with each other and we’re somehow left out of thatum and it you can be with people and feel that way or you can be alone and feel that way yeah thank you does anybody else get fomo I I’m I’ve got a a chronic case b big time foma um which I’m trying to work on it’s it’s I I noticed yesterday was a perfect example that um uh the church where where we attend daily mass um we’re not members of it but we go there it’s it’s close by it’s a very very poor very very poor Church um and um and so a big project lately has been Gathering things from my mother’s um house and taking them to thewarehouse for the church and they had their fall festivals that we donated tons and tons of stuff um mostly shoes yeah my mother was like AEL Dem Marcos um in her shoe collection anyway um so that was that was all weekend and then yesterday um an acquaintance of mine who’s an art a local artist was having an openhouse at his Studio from 12:00 to 8: and and then this it’s called the Lemon Festival because it’s in Lemon Grove I think your sister lives in Lemon Grove Heidi if I recall um so I had a horrible day of fomobecause I was worried that I didn’t know what was happening hour by hour at these two events and both of them were open events you know one was a you know like a carnival basically the one at the church where it’s not like there there there wasn’t any like schedule of performances or anything that I was going to miss but I got obsessive about um missing you know what if I miss the results of the lemon baking contest and then I can’t try the winning cake which I did I actually like calculated so here it isum this is the W the winning cake um so I I bought some of that and then I had to leave it with the lady in the refrigerator cuz I had to rush downtown cuz I was scared I was going to miss the most important part of the artist’s openhouse which again was an open house so people drifting in and out I didn’t know anyone except for the artist himself who was there from 12 to 8 so what was I worried about the art wasn’t going anywhere anyway that’s just an illustration of like yesterday was it should have been a joyful fun upbeatkind of a day and we’ve had so much drama and stress and Agony lately that I should have looked forward to it but instead I was even the night before I was in a panic like how are we going to coordinate this so we get the right window of time for each of these events which are meaningless event I mean not meaningless but I mean it’s not like I had a lecture to go to or a performance or something and so anyway that’s my example of pH modes it’s very pathetic so my question is this formal has it todo with loneliness the psychologist or Gina I think I think that if you think back to like a childhood thing about even just choosing teams for a basketball um who gets picked first who gets picked last you know those things started very early or if you had a caky school and you know were you on were you on the cool kids side or are you on the sort of well not fully accepted but tolerated side and so I think those things start fairly early so whenever I’ve done my uh you know what is your profile you do tons of these personalitytests when you go to work for people what always shows up for for me is the importance of relationships to me and the importance of relationships means that every time I encounter a group I want to be accepted and I want to feel belonging but normally that translates into me caring more about the relationship than the people I’m with so I attribute more value to it than than they do so uh one of the things i’ and particularly as a consultant where you’re coming into people’s teams and into their work environment and it’s notpermanent but you know I don’t have well in my work environment I have to create those relationships on on the Fly and so I want to be friends after the contract you know I want to still be there but then I find well I don’t really have that time and so what becomes lonely is when you don’t have as you I think you alluded to earlier Christine like you need someone to to connect with when you’re having those feelings and and if you have someone to connect with on a super happy day or a super sad day justsomebody who will take the time to listen and be with you I think that makes a difference between loneliness and being alone which I agree with um mon those are can be very different feelings I I don’t mind being alone but I don’t want to feel lonely that’s my view yeah thank you yeah I uh I remember growing up I was I was the oldest of four and the oldest of 30 cousins and um there was a loneliness in not being with people who were at my level uh you know and because of age um uh I found that when I wanted to talkabout something that was really bothering me or something new I was trying or something I felt anxious about um that I couldn’t turn to my siblings because they hadn’t been through it yet and I couldn’t turn to my cousins because they hadn’t been through it yet and yet when I when I sought out the the adults they didn’t have time or they didn’t have the ability to just sit down and listen except for my mother she was a fabulous listener she just was too busy to do it so there was a kind of loneliness there I did I didn’t noticeit I just thought well that’s life you know that’s that’s what it is or I would be with my younger sisters and they would be chattering away and fighting and doing all the stuff it was just noise it was just noise noise and I just wanted to get away from it so it was like back and forth between that but I didn’t realize until the first time I was in therapy and I was already almost 30 years old that someone could really listen to you and reflect back what you’re saying and it was like oh people could do thatpeople do that you know it was like a big Revelation so is it any wonder I became a psychologist eventually so but but I carried a piece of that loneliness with me I think throughout my life um and then when my marriage broke up um and a lot of that was because we really couldn’t communicate I mean he really couldn’t he really couldn’t get to what he was feeling or put it put them into words so it was a history and um not two months after we broke up um the pandemic started and oddly the pandemic was a relief becauseI don’t know if you’ve experienced this but when I am grieving a loss I want the world to stop and then it did so it was an OD pocket I slipped into there um which helped me personally uh until it got to be the third year you know then it really got to be too much so yeah so I’ve had an interesting relationship with feeling lonely wanting to be alone and just feeling like I didn’t know who to turn to to um you know talk about what I really needed to talk about and as a result I didn’t learn to talk about someof these feelings until much later in my life I I just didn’t know how because people didn’t in those days you know so yeah it’s been it’s been interesting and of course fomo was part of that I mean there was definitely because then other people oh they seem to be having a great time and why can’t I get into this frame of mind it was more like that you know fear of missing out on the feeling you get when you’re doing things with other people so there was that piece of it [Music] too so as you were talking I I was theyoungest in my family youngest of the cousins youngest of my siblings and so my fomo arose because I saw my brother and sister who were closer in age so they got to do a lot of things at the same time because developmentally it it fit and I was too much younger to participate so you know they were having parties and sleepovers and this thing and that thing going to dances or whatever they were doing in their lives and I was like whoa I want to do that so I wanted experiences but I also wanted um as you were talking line I wasthinking you know maybe I was just so dependent on the external world to get my pleasure and happiness like I loneliness maybe is not only about a connection with people and relating but also to what extent do you need external forces whether they be people or situations to generate your own pleasure and joy and happiness so I think that can be also a component of loneliness can we be by ourselves and still feel um generate our own joy and that’s I don’t know that’s a skill it’s not that easy to do it’s a skill well I was an onlychild so I had all my books as friends and uh yeah that makes a difference I guess yeah for me is for instance it would never come into my mind to to travel alone because I need somebody to talk about what what’s what I feel what I’m what I’m seeing what I’m discovering for instance when I went now it’s five years ago to South Africa to the conference I knew there were people I know already and we went uh on the on the tour through South Africa and so that was possible for me but I probably wouldn’thave gone there without having known anybody of of these people it’s it’s um I’m not very how do you say in in traveling because I just can’t uh and that is also good because it’s meeting my my sedentary life and my enjoyment of the changes in nature and so on I’m not very excited about traveling but I’m I’m missing out on many many things for sure but this is not that’s not the point the point for me I want to to connect with people and to share and um I don’t feel lonely when I have at least one person as I had for instancewith Mark uh where we were very much together the I always had relationship with only one person men or women I mean friends you know well mostly one person at a time and I see the danger for symbiosis in this case so uh I’m not yet quite sure if loneliness and symbiosis are the choices or if there is a way of deeply connecting with uh or feeling not lonely with people who you are not having this complete relationship I mean it’s much better now I’m I’m very much more able to to be with people just you knowwithout deep conversations and so on but up to let’s say 10 years ago and I I I must say that the therapy things and the the the courses and coaching courses and everything it really helped without that I probably would be closed egg so thank you to the psychologists that you’re doing your work yeah I agree completely I but I just wanted to add my mother um who was who could be quite nasty um she used to say you know psychology is is because she had she had millions of friends and it was interesting because she alwayssaid friends are good for nothing because I would talk about friends as people who will come to your Aid if you’re in trouble Who Will Comfort you and sorrow you know real Companions and my mother said oh that’s nonsense she would just blow it off and she said friends are good for nothing and sure enough when she got sick there was nobody there nobody there to help her no one to take her to the doctor no one to take her shopping or bring her food when she got so sick she couldn’t leave the house umand I thought how ironic you know she was right because I never anticipated that she was always surrounded by friends and people calling she was on the phone all day long and the other thing um that she said that I that this makes me think of is she said you know the only way to really share your troubles with someone is to pay them she said you have to pay someone to listen to you and she said that’s how we got psychology and therapy and counseling and all these careers she said it’s a sign of the modern worldthere was no such thing 100 years ago well or whatever whatever before Frey um she said that’s the sign that you know our culture has changed our society has changed and she always maintained that and um and she only once she agreed to go with me to a like a family therapy session and at the end she said like a real narcissist she said I think he really liked me don’t you and she said and I think he liked me better than you don’t you think and I thought okay I W this really oh dear narcissists so that’s the story of mymother you know I don’t know if you guys participate much in in podcasts or blogs or something thing um I I’m not doing that for no particular reason other than I i’ read books instead of listening to podcasts but and I don’t have anything I want to blog about that I have such strong opinions I feel like putting it out there into the world for everybody to see but obviously a lot of people especially since the pandemic it has just become a a part of everybody’s daily life and I do think they usepodcasts to feel a connection because you can select what you want to listen to obviously that’s going to make you feel like it’s your thing and uh Tom is always blogging about politics and integral and other things and I think he feels a sense of he does have a sense of connection um and it’s grown his connection with a lot of people through the internet uh but I don’t I don’t know I don’t enjoy that so much some people do um and I do think it’s become so prevalent as a way of feeling connectedbecause we’re not doing it as much in person interesting point Sorry I think it’s what’s interesting is that um I certainly appreciated uh exploring relationships on uh the internet um but in some ways it it’s not as deep or is not always as deep as it could be if you were actually sitting with someone and actually being very Mindful and truly listening and I think you know like one of the things that was was told to me about the difference between Canadian and urban European culture is if a Canadian says how are you doing you goI’m fine and you might not be fine but nobody ever takes it past on fine whereas my understanding is as in some European cultures if you say how are you you actually tell people how you are you sit down and you listen and you take whatever time it is and maybe that’s a a fantasy that was created but um I found that um actually giving people that time and being present for people took a little bit of discipline on my part to actually do that and and I think that’s when you can really have that sense thatyou know your loneliness can it takes away the loneliness if you can feel that a true connection versus a superficial connection yeah that’s true that uh you can say uh what you you you are not obliged to say oh I’m fine you can say oh but today I’m feeling a little bit blah blah blah you know that’s um that’s true so Heidi is has it been your experience since you are doing a lot of things and I I believe Mona is also on the internet you have salons to go to and various groups that you’re interacting with on a regular basis youknow like this one every two weeks and you’ve got others has that how does that fit for you in terms of improving any sense of loneliness or your connectedness for me it is important to to have the recurring uh uh meetings and have know the people better and better and on the internet normally I succeed to have deeper conversations than in normal life in normal life it’s about cooking now the pens are mature do you want some pens and things like that you know or bit small talk and at least the people here around it’s not that you canyou can scratch the surface a little bit but you cannot go deeper because you don’t know how people would take when you say what you what you think yeah about certain topics if it’s political or whatever so more cautious well in in a group like ours we have this silent agreement that everybody can say what they want to say you know and even if you I’m not agreeing with you or not with you in certain topics but that doesn’t matter you know and you’re not agreeing with what I say uh but this is this is not umtouching the relationship we are creating it’s a a free uh expression of what we think in the moment or what we feel in the moment and this is not necessarily possible with with the people I have around not even with my family even less probably I see them very little but on the internet I really feel feel much connection and some of the people I know in person some I don’t but it doesn’t seem to make a big difference and the recurrence is important even the the Tuesday group of German women you know and we everyTuesday and every Sunday we meet and um not they’re different not all the in the same they are different people some times on Sunday on Tuesday but this recurrence and this meeting that’s it’s deepening deepening the connection and for me it’s vital because otherwise I would be really lonely so I’m not lonely I’m alone of some of the time most of the time but not lonely thanks to the Internet thanks to zoom well it helps if you know someone personally and then you can meet on Zoom this makes a lot of a difference becauseuh some of the integral people I know most of them I know personally and when we meet on Zoom it’s different because uh yeah when we when you sit together a conversation can go much deeper and deeper and of course it takes more than an hour and usually when you you sit together and you eat something and you talk so it you can sit for 4 hours and it doesn’t seem but on the other hand as we did last on Friday everybody was sort of the next day rather tired so it really was a challenge to go in person deeper anddeeper but none of us would miss it so it it was really a new way of meeting some and life and that’s yeah we’ll see if we will keep that up and if we can stand it we’ll see yeah but it’s not someone who you are meeting I can meet here someone but you are meeting people with a certain integral people yeah developmental evolutionary State stage uh and this is that makes the difference and not so much in like life or or or Zoom for me and all of us are read people who read we were talking about it andeveryone was saying yeah well I have thousands of books in my library and so we are people really who read uh and not just read something but exchange with the author our ideas and that helps also yeah well um looking forward in two weeks all the elections our elections will be passed and we’ll just get interested in the USA elections and yeah I’m my daughters are American and one has registered uh so the older one has registered but the younger one yeah it doesn’t matter anyway so they are alsointerested in B going on in the states they have double citizenship so they can vote there too and they have to pay both taxes twice the taxes yeah probably but when you play pay as much taxes as you do in Austria there’s much left to pay in other countryes a lot of taxes in Austria we do definitely yeah but as soon do you know what state they would be voting in I mean not physically but what state they’re connected to uh New Jersey New Jersey okay I believe yeah that’s where we lived when they were born so in NewJersey so how do we close this loneliness um conversation is anybody lonely of you or only alone or both you have to go you are not lonely he is in thousands of yeah I think uh I think what I’d like to do is just Express the appreciation for this time together and for bringing us together and um um you know how our our relationship did start online and uh I feel close to you and so I do believe that’s possible but I think maybe we can just close it and gratitude for the appre appreciation that we cancome together like this that’s right nice nice everybody be well see you again in two weeks yeah okay okay and I went to to say I except of lorine I have seen everybody of you and I don’t see much difference um only lorine I have seen less so I know less of her but I think it’s more or less the same Al Gina I knew her before online for a while and then she came over and it’s like you know normal and I love that you mean you want me to visit you yeah sure in Italy oh that would be so that’ll be so of sleepinghomeless go that’s right I’ll be homeless anyway yeah do when you have sold your house take take some time and come and see me well thank you I will I will think long and hard about that okay see you in two weeks and I hope we see you in in with the camera then next time okay yeah I will do my best I’ll figure it thanks take care nice to meet you bye bye bye bye