Human Nature

### Metadata

– Title:Human Nature Women Matters in “The Wisdom Factory”

– URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYfPw5MWVnc

Summary

In the video discussion held on March 24, 2025, a group of four women explores the multifaceted topic of human nature. They reflect on various dimensions of human interactions, communication challenges, and cultural perceptions relative to societal advancements. The conversation initially touches on the confusion surrounding time changes in different regions, symbolizing the larger issue of global disconnection. Transitions into personal updates allow the participants to reveal their personal journeys and frustrations, particularly focusing on finding purpose and the complexities of intergenerational communication.

One notable theme that emerges is the contrast between perceived superiority in cultures versus the inherent gifts across different societies. The conversation also delves into personal development tools like Gene Keys and astrology, highlighting differing perspectives on how these frameworks inform identity and personal growth. The exchange touches briefly on historical colonialism and the resulting psychological impacts that shape present-day beliefs and attitudes, including the struggle with arrogance and a reluctance to acknowledge global progress beyond Europe.

Participants share stories derived from their experiences, emphasizing the need for compassion, understanding, and the acceptance of one’s inherent gifts. They discuss how society can sometimes fall back on pride, complicating relationships and communication. The discussion culminates in reflections on the nature of change and the human capacity for cruelty amidst the innate potential for goodness.

 Highlights
– 🕰️ **Time Disparity Confusion**: Discussion about time zone changes reflects larger global disconnects.
– 💕 **Celebrations of Life**: Participants share personal updates, revealing their aspirations and challenges.
– 📚 **Telepathy & Autism**: Fascination with how parents of neurodivergent children communicate, illustrating alternative forms of connection.
– 🌐 **Cultural Superiority**: Critique of Western attitudes toward non-Western cultures and the persistence of colonial mindset.
– 🌱 **Personal Growth Tools**: The use of Gene Keys and astrology as frameworks for personal exploration and identity formation.
– 💔 **Inherent Goodness vs. Cruelty**: Tension between human nature’s potential for kindness and the realities of societal cruelty.
– 🧘 **Need for Humility**: Urgency of recognizing diverse cultural contributions, challenging the egoistic belief of superiority.

 Key Insights
– 🕰️ **Global Disconnection**: The challenge of coordinating various time zones is emblematic of cultural and teleological divides, echoing larger issues in human connection and cooperation. In an interconnected world, understanding and agreeing on common frameworks are challenging but essential for progress. The consensus-building mechanisms of this interconnected reality must transcend bureaucratic red tape for functional outcomes.

– 💕 **The Role of Celebrations**: Personal festivities, such as wedding anniversaries or birthdays, serve as anchor points in social relations, providing a sense of purpose and community. These elements of human psychology highlight the importance of connection and celebration as foundational to human relationships, ultimately propelling motivational dynamics within varied social constructs.

– 🌱 **Telepathy Insights**: The interest in telepathy as a communication avenue for parents with autistic children raises significant considerations about alternative human experiences. This opens up discussions on empathy and connection, broadening our definitions of interaction and relationship-building beyond conventional verbal communication.

– 🌐 **The Persistence of Colonial Attitudes**: Deep-rooted perceptions of cultural superiority signify a void in acknowledging diverse contributions from various societies. Recognizing the worth of all cultural expressions enriches global dialogue and diminishes the pyrotechnics of pride that divide societies. Overcoming this bias requires systemic shifts in education and cultural appreciation.

– 💔 **Human Nature’s Duality**: The tension between the propensity for kindness and the realities of cruelty addresses the complex psychological underpinnings of human existence. This duality suggests that integrating spiritual practices into daily life can act as a counterbalance to the darker aspects of human nature, promoting societal healing and personal growth.

– 🧘 **The Pursuit of Humility**: Acknowledging personal and cultural weaknesses derives moral strength and opens paths for growth. Cultivating humility enables individuals to refine perspectives toward understanding others, fostering a more constructive and inclusive dialogue that benefits the collective.

– 📝 **Frameworks of Understanding**: Tools like Gene Keys and astrological patterns offer pathways to self-discovery and understanding. By embracing these frameworks, individuals can better understand their behaviors and motivations, contributing to personal development and connections with others through shared experiences. Recognizing the uniqueness of individual journeys serves as a potent reminder of the diverse human experience.

In conclusion, the video discussion underscores that human nature is a complex tapestry woven with threads of pride, cultural perceptions, and communication challenges. Recognizing and nurturing both the positive and negative aspects of our nature is vital for fostering deeper understanding and relationships in today’s interconnected world. The discussions illuminate the importance of humility, respect, and acceptance as we navigate a world rich in diversity, encouraging listeners to embrace their unique gifts while acknowledging the strengths of others.

— With NoteGPT

we have women matters today is the 24th of March in 2025 and we are talking about human nature because we were so much um how do you say in in in wonder why the whole world couldn’t agree on one day when to switch the time into legal time and and so on because this is a problem today haneli and Victoria they came an hour earlier because in America is already changed in uh in South Africa it’s always the same but you don’t know how to orient yourself and Europe hasn’t changed yet but next Sunday will be

changed so and Victoria had a good um proposal to say that she will tell you later let’s do the first the little check in and Mona you were talking about your 60 matrimonium no I am we celebrate uh our 60th wedding anniversary in June and we are prepare Oh thank you thank you we are preparing uh a festive meal lunchon of course because we don’t like to eat it at in the evening much and uh yeah and we just got the the from the hotel that this term the date is possible so everything is fine and now we are I’m starting to relax

because we it’s rather difficult to really arrange things uh because they want to give you so much information beforehand uh that we didn’t really feel like doing it and then they don’t respond etc so I’m sort of relaxed and tired because I had a massage that was rather hurtful but necessary and on my leg for the first time and so I’m sort of relaxing and then people give people over to Han Lee thank you Mona i’m here in Cape Town and yes um I’m still in awe i’ve been listening to the telepathy tapes

it’s you can listen to it on YouTube or on Spotify it’s amazing um it’s about how parents with autistic children and neurody divergent children but mostly autistic children how they communicate via telepathy it’s incredible it’s just amazing and obviously it’s not only them that can communicate that way but it’s just amazing how that happens and yeah so I’m still in that awe of of it all because it’s so touching and the stories are just amazing how parents struggled especially like 10 20 30 years

ago and you talk about human nature yes it’s exactly that and now there are other ways that we can communicate and uh be together than the ones that we think and if you listen to those stories some are heartbreaking but in the end it’s just so beautiful when they discover that we can communicate in this way so I’m still in that and I’m passing you to to you Victoria thank you um well first of all I want to uh relay Beatatric’s greetings um because of the time change um uh because I I uh sent her a reminder

message this morning uh but of course I was thinking it was an hour earlier and um she was all excited to come to join and then Hani and I discovered that we had made this mistake so Beatric unfortunately is already she already has to be a work so um but she sent her love and maybe next time um although she’ll she’ll be in the middle of production next time I think on a brand new ballet um so uh yeah I don’t know what to check in um I’m trying to find a some kind of new new uh life purpose um because every time I think of

something I get pushed back and so I’m it’s a process of discernment because I um I want to I want to do something with all the knowledge and skills I’ve acquired and but um unfortunately nobody nobody seems terribly interested in whatever I have to contribute so that’s um so I’m kind of in a strange space right now um trying to discern what my next step should be and how to proceed um and otherwise trying to just live in the moment because otherwise it’s too discouraging so I think that’s enough of

my check in over to you Heidi thank you you were talking again about human nature that we want to pass on what we have learned and there were times in which it was very welcome that the elders uh were teaching the youngest that seems to be a little lost at least in our areas but I don’t think that’s the last word said on that so my check in yeah I’m quite quite okay looking forward to more spring and to Easter some people coming from Germany and uh you know so I started um a course with Betina Vikas I don’t know

Mona you will know her about consciously aging and that’s really good course she in the first uh lesson last week she gave us our chart of human design and of green keys and I was sort of blown away because I thought yeah the shade and the gift and the destination and everything which is um uh written down it’s all fitting to me and I can say yes that’s it and there’s also the question what can we and how can we give away what we what we have learned but also what we are you know so I’m I’m curious how it how it goes on so that’s

human nature and you said uh Victoria that’s why we decided to use this topic you you told the story from Australia we were still talking about the the the time change problems and you told us this little story do you want to take over and tell us oh just that um I lived in Australia for six years and um I was told by my friends there that because I did a lot of rail travel uh while I lived there that um it took a long time for the different territories in Australia to agree on um having the same gauge for

the railways that each territory had its own gauge and um every time you crossed from one territory to the next you had to change trains um because they couldn’t they couldn’t agree on a common gauge and just how how typical that is of human nature that um that you know everything has to be well well there’s an expression we use here um my way or the highway and um speaking of genes um genetic makeup I think my entire family on my mother’s side is is afflicted with this this idea my way or the highway a a

an inability to compromise or to negotiate um everything has to be the way that you know one person envisions it and if you don’t agree then you’re out uh there’s no there’s no uh no discussion so I think that’s yeah that’s why I was thinking with the time when you said Heidi about the why can’t the whole world just agree okay this is if we’re going to do change the time this I mean even here in the United States um Arizona which is right next to California um doesn’t change its time regardless ever um so I guess like South

Africa um so that gets very confusing too if for um I know some people who their business is in Arizona but they live here because they want to be near the And even they you know after decades get mixed up like what what time is it actually and that’s just you know 4 hours from here so it’s um yeah that’s why I thought yeah you’re right it’s human nature and isn’t that a real arrogance i had the experience i was asking for Italian citizenship and had to fill out all these questionnaire and send the

documents and everything and they rejected it twice because something was missing and then the the website went into blockage and I couldn’t upload more than one document at the time and all these things and I thought but for instance Amazon has a website which is working but Italy these people always think that they can do it better and they have always websites wherever you go where you think it’s not possible you know I had to struggle when I did a tourismo I had to struggle so much with these websites and in this time I

already knew about websites I built mine my own ones you know and these official websites they were unstandable and complicated and and So it was always my question why can’t they ask somebody who knows how these things work you know but the arrogance we are the best no this we from integral theory if we know what it is no atmosentrism we or ego even egoentrism but in this case atmosentrism because we Italians we know or we Germans we know how the oh we Americans we know how the world needs to be you know so we are still there aren’t

we what’s really fascinating now would you say that what’s fascinating to me last year I met um professionally I met a lady online from London and she was it was like she lived in a different world that she couldn’t think that somebody from South Africa could have wisdom she it was I was shocked I was completely in shock what did you think that we a couple of idiots you know it was like you live in the 21st century with the internet and in social media and everything and you still think there couldn’t be innovators coming from this

part of the world and think or people who are wise from this part of the world it was just fascinating but I love what you say about Jean’s idea i’ve been working with Genesis for two for two for 14 years now every day okay and it’s it’s amazing and Victoria if it’s something you are if you are trying to connect with your inner purpose according to your genes then I would recommend gene kissing you can do your profile for free and I’m willing to help you just to get set with it as well um it’s amazing because it’s

it’s and I’ve done it for my my daughter has done it she’s has done some of the courses um it’s not courses it’s tracks you can say it’s a track a journey um and I’ve done it with many friends and it’s amazing it’s always spot on it’s who we truly are it’s not something that’s sucked you know if you really go and look at it you begin to work with it you can just read the book as well if you want to but I mean it’s um you do your profile it’s amazing it’s a guideline it mean it’s not the thing but

it’s a guideline it gives you direction and like I said this our wounded parts our shadow parts the stuff that we have to work on in terms of our relationships in terms of being abundant in terms of just living our our our sharing our our life’s work with the world what are we here for to share with the world it’s it’s really it’s really powerful in helping us to get our way if we are struggling to find our ways and it comes back to human nature it comes back to human nature yes i find it also as a sort of confirmation

that what I have done so far is not wrong you know and it went into the into the right direction but coming back to that in Africa no they they are all primitive you know so um we are still I I discovered uh in the late late the years past but even up to now how much this colonial identity of Europe is still in us even in little things you know you think oh no I’m not thinking like this and then you discover something like oh you know so this um almost habitual thing that we are superior So it’s really really really deep we

have lived that for four 500s or even more years i mean before were the Romans who occupied everything and we are not very far from from Romans so um that is long long long long habit which has almost gone into the genes obviously so without noticing you are getting into this mindset all these black people you know they they are and I heard uh I think it was it was a German psychologist I don’t remember the name but he said oh no a doctor when he went to India when he did um his doctorate and he went to India and studied there

too and he was so astonished how much the English doctors knew much more than himself and he said that was for him a cure of this superiority because he understood that they are where he was at the university maybe not everywhere but they were much more ahead than he was in his studies and so I think we should go more often in other countries and see what they are able to do and to be you know with our innate innate inherited superiority feeling and uh Victoria and also Mona you are studying Buddhism no isn’t it that they say to to

leave uh this arrogance aside um I just want to say something about propo of Africa before we um switch gears to Buddhism um that just a minute that’s the reason I wanted to say it uh was that ju just a minute before I logged on for this call I was quickly checking my emails I was looking for something specific which I didn’t find but um there was an email from someone I’d never heard of before about a in Paris a tap dance um convention in July and I don’t know how she got my dress but anyway there was a

long biography the star of this three-day event in Paris is a woman an African-American woman who um carries the legacy of the great um black male tap dancers of the early part of the 20th century because she studied with them she must be really old i’ve never heard of her but um and I was thinking actually about how and this is an interesting thing about human nature how um there’s the colonialism on the one side but on the other side the reality is what what I’ve realized um and like you were saying about medicine

every every racial group or culture um has unique unique gifts to contribute to the world and so it’s a matter of perspective um but now because of this this you know the gender colonialism imperialism all these things it’s not politically correct but but everyone secretly I think still would acknowledge that the great um like jazz and tap dance and certain things like this um unquestionably come from Africa and come from the way the African body human body I mean this is all politically incorrect

what I’m saying but I don’t care because I know it’s true that the the body itself they are they have different kind of body which has a um the ability to do these amazing things and um which we as as Caucasians don’t you know we have to study really hard and work really hard to get our bodies to comply and um and I was thinking with medicine like Chinese and Indian you know Asian the Asians are way ahead in medicine always have been and so in terms of human nature I was thinking um if there were more cross

fertilization and acknowledgement especially Now that we’re in a global culture realizing you have gifts that I don’t have and and your culture can contribute immeasurably um instead of trying to make everybody the same to really celebrate the differences in the positive way because I think there’s there’s a desire especially now with AI there’s a desire to like flatten everything out and um you’re not allowed to say oh you know I’m glad to be a woman because you know I can give birth to a child or whatever

like whatever it’s everything has to be the same now and no gender no race no anything like it’s we’re all just you know cut out of the same cookie cutter mold anyway I’m uh rambling i’m going to give it over to Monia who’s been very quiet um yeah I like that idea I followed uh that unique gifts give you a sense of superiority which isn’t really uh smart because everybody has a unique gift in her or his way and uh yeah I just remembered my school days when I when my unique gift gave me superiority and everybody hated me for

it it wasn’t my fault it’s just I could do that and yeah anyway what was it oh writing and poetry and uh just rhyming in a very pleasant way and I I wrote for an academy i wrote for the paper i wrote for the school paper and the school academy the school performances and it came very natural to me it doesn’t anymore but at that time it’s just was in my jeans let’s put it that way and yeah I was wondering about the jean keys um because I I’m trying to remember i once got a got a a short a brief uh view of mine

but I I I don’t remember it anymore but it was maybe I should contact that man again because he really got deep into it um but isn’t it the same like if you are claiming to be an anagram type and uh you sort of rely on it and this is makes you feel uh yeah it’s a kind of uh you got certain rights and certain problems when you have a certain type on the other hand uh all of life is open for you and you could change if you really were intent on changing so I wonder if it’s human nature that we really don’t want to

change much and just keep on going the way we are being miserable because we know the crutches and uh we can rely on That was what I was just associ associating i think human nature is that we we are more static we don’t want to change safety security and that’s every change is seems to make fear you know and so um I guess evolution has taken care for that because you you have to change no choice and as far as for the gene keys that’s another typology that’s clear many typologies but I enjoy knowing more of Um because everyone has

a little bit a different aspect on on on the things and a different um view a different perspective on your gifts and on your let’s say problems or places where you still have to if you want to develop so I think I mean that’s that really brings out an interesting question about human nature is that do if you look at these these schemas or or whatever you want to call them systems as predestining or predetermining the outcome versus looking at them retroactively like you were saying Heidi you said oh it’s so great because I

realized I did I did the right things with my life like they all are confirmed by this um I mean I don’t know anything at all about jinky so I’m in I’m interested in learning um from Hani I mean from all of you but Haly offered to um but I remember my my late husband was constantly talking about astrology um he was an anthroposphist actually but but he was into a he liked astrology too i mean he didn’t follow it like he didn’t say “Oh I’m not going to go out today because my horoscope says it’s not auspicious or whatever.” But um

but it just enraged my mother um because she said that’s so simplistic and so um to say “Oh you know you were born when the moon was this or I I don’t know astrology really but um and your sign.” So but it but it does what Mona said I think raises an interesting question of of um it kind of depends it’s like a chicken and egg thing like do we do we look at these various systems and signs or the anagram too but um any of these categories as guideposts or as confirmation or as um I know I do know people who who literally

are obsessive about their horoscopes and they literally won’t leave home if it says you know this is not a good day for you or they won’t you know invest in this or that thing because which then I think can be very limiting um so that brings out another thing about human nature I think of of having um needing yeah maybe maybe you could call them crutches in the way if there I mean they can be used that way to also to justify things oh I that that’s what my mother couldn’t stand about what Conrad used to say because he

he would say oh well she does that because she’s a Libra or whatever my mother would just go ballistic she said she said “Everyone has we have free will we have choice.” She she just enraged her so um but that’s an example of like a crutch thing like a a justification yeah Victoria um I wouldn’t compare it in Mona i wouldn’t compare Jenis to the Inog i’ll tell you why jen Keys is based on the time that you are born the date that you are born um so it’s not just a questionnaire that you fill in and you you realize but I’m

this or that it it it has to do with um where all the planets were obviously as well it’s linked to it’s linked to the itin it’s linked to um so the itin um astrology of because of the time that you born and where you were born um and stuff like that but it’s not it’s not as like for me I always had a dilemma with personality profiling because you fill in a questionnaire today I tomorrow I can do it and it’s different because I feel differently and the same for me in is related to the enog not because of your your blueprint of

how you come into the world but what I want to share about Gi specifically because I’ve worked with it so long it’s not it’s a guideline Victoria it’s not this is it and it will not tell you oh you must go and be a pianist or you must go and be a violinist it’s not going to tell you that stuff it’s about the energy behind whatever you do so for example if your purpose is mine my purpose is my wounded side my my shadow is purposelessness i have to have a purp I have to be purposeful in something but

my my gift is totality so I bring must bring my whole self to it so my purpose is not soundly must be a medical doctor or she must go and do that or that i can do whatever I want to do but I must bring my full self into it and it’s about the energy behind these things and what’s keeping me from that so what’s taking me into my shadow for example and I also believe that we can’t forever work on our shadows as well at some stage we must take responsibility for who we are and really live every day for

to the fullest whatever that might mean but it’s a guideline it’s like it’s like any other of these systems and they’re all just different i I always explain to people if you take numerology you take astrology things like genities and human design um and all these type of things it’s like you just get the view a different view on yourself it’s not the whole picture because we’re a lot more than that we about so much more than that and at some stage the way I use it is not even according to my profile any

longer for many many years it’s just I pick a every day to work with so it’s not even my profile so I just intuitively call up a jinky and then that day I will work with that jinky and so for let me give you an example of my one today that I picked intuitively is pride is the shadow and then the gift is artfulness to doing things in artful way and the and the super gift the CD is uh invisibility now when you talk about the CDs it’s like um when we really enlightened so to speak when we really don’t don’t live in our shadow at all

there’s no ego anymore if I can explain like that but it’s again it’s just a guideline and it helps us to find but especially younger people these days because they are so lost it gives them a little bit of a view of themselves and what I love about the jinky community itself is that there are so many young people doing it today And it’s amazing for them to have some like see my daughter as well it just gives her a little bit of guidance and it’s because it’s it’s her own blueprint it’s not something somebody else sucked up you

know it’s not somebody else teacher taught her about something she’s feeling the energies herself she experiencing it herself so that’s what all I wanted to share about that but what I want to also bring into the discussion is recently and I don’t want to bring politics in it at all you talk about human nature somebody I saw somebody wrote something recently about what’s happening in the US and Europe and wherever with Russia and everything Israel everything and someone said um they called up some

philosopher I can’t remember who it was who spoke about human nature and that if we can just see the beauty in life but we don’t look at the beauty we look at the other side and this person wrote something about related to that and he said humans are just cruel because of a lot of stuff that’s happening in the US now that how come people agree with things certain things it’s because he said but at human nature at the bottom of it is cruelty and that really made me wonder that how is it that we can think

that something is okay when it’s really not okay for example well that of course brings in the whole question of like an evolutionary mindset versus a spiritual mindset i think that that um it’s with human nature i remember the first time I read the Bible and read about Noah and the flood and God said um man what what is I mean it depends on the translation but something like the thoughts of man’s heart are only evil continually and I remember as a child even thinking only the only and the continually jumped out at me that

this this absolute like condemnation of the human race that there’s only evil and so God decided I’m going to wipe out the I’m going to start like this was a big like cosmic mistake i’m going to wipe out the human race and start over and I remember as a child being so horrified by that um but anyway I won’t like digress into like spiritual questions but but I I think what you know I studied evolutionary biology in college with Eio Wilson who was the big guru well now he’s even more famous than he was when he was alive for some reason

but um um I took a lot of courses with him because I had a sort of an extra year um and that whole idea that human nature is no different really fundamentally than than it’s it’s animal nature so there is no distin Hunley um it’s only pride that makes us think we’re better than animals because we aren’t i mean that’s the that’s the hardcore evolutionary principle that um there’s no more altruism in in human nature than there is in animals and we see a little tiny bit in animals you know some random

mother bear will help some orphaned baby bear whatever like I there it’s pretty minimal it’s not a big big deal um but then the question is like what is human nature i mean is is it any way any different than like if you study primate societies you don’t see a huge um difference you know and and yet you do I mean so that that’s where the question comes up because there is this um there is I think a noble side to human nature which reflects the divine but whether whether or not we acknowledge it or live

into that or express it is then our choice okay Mona um I read about a book review today it was just published uh I don’t know the title and it’s in German anyway it’s about the last days of World War II when everybody knew that they couldn’t win and all this cruelty unbelievable cruelty erupted in people and it wasn’t ordered they just and that’s what’s really shook me up that the bottom line of the human nature is cruelty and that’s something I really don’t want to support maybe that’s why I for more than more than half of my

life after I was 30 that I devoted myself to the spiritual aspects of human nature yeah but uh the uh the funny what I also remembered uh as you may know we have now uh finally got uh a government in Austria and at first when they had all these negotiations they couldn’t agree then uh they tried with the right-wing party couldn’t agree either because they are used to be opposition They don’t want to govern really and then the our head of state told them to compromise and to do it for the best of the state and all of

a sudden they could agree now what happened um it’s so oh how do I say it in English in German I say pain it’s it’s embarrassing really um that all of a sudden they they could compromise and all of a sudden they could step over their shadows and all of a sudden they just wanted the job and they wanted the money and Yeah and this is what it’s human nature it’s it’s Yeah that’s what I think is the difference between animals and uh and humans humans play strange games you know with their mind distorted mindsets

and there comes the arrogance again because we think we are special you know we can oh we want more money and so I need to the job and I want to to be a minister and if the other ones the other party is winning then I’m I’m out so better I make a sort of compromise for me not for the people in the country but for me it’s Good so I I do that this is what an animal can’t do and the cruelty of emas what you say is the cruelty i I’m convinced that when an animal eats another one that’s not cruelty and they

don’t kill each other for their benefit it’s it’s uh that’s a human human trait right and for me it has to do with the mind and the mind can be easily distorted so what we need to do is purification of the mind and I think the what do you think Buddhists are doing all the time Dorian I’m thinking that’s it’s it’s a a long there are people who have understood that for a long time and try to to work on it but yeah I mean there are many more people now than maybe 50 years ago who are agreeing on this or

trying to study that but altogether we I don’t think we have come very for at least not the ones who are governing us I don’t know where they are ethnosentric egoentric um between red and blue I would say more red than blue sometimes when you think what they are earning and getting money doing all the bribery and the oh dear that’s incredible yeah that’s human nature obviously Victoria The red and blue that Heidi is referring to is not about the US i just want to make sure that everybody’s watching as well realize

that yeah it’s not about that it’s integral yeah no I know i just went through that that that that process of figuring it out because the first my first reaction was “Oh what did she say?” Yeah no I understand but I also I also resonate with what you’re saying Heidi also animals are not cruel it’s it’s us humans well what they’ve noticed in research um and that’s why I was referring to with the primate societies is that um under extreme conditions the um there there is there is wanting cruelty um in in in not just in primates

and in other in other animal societies too um but those are those are in laboratories so like the there’s that famous um study with rats about how everything all society breaks down um with overcrowding and overpopulation um I forgot the name of the scientist it wasn’t Skinner it was a one that’s less famous now it um and and so the if if the living conditions are extreme and of course that is what we have now in human population then um then then things start to break down in the society because then it does

become kind of survival of the fittest so so they have so but in the wild they’ve observed scientists have observed that primates um if if there is a a severe shortage of resources for example then they will there will be acts of want and cruelty of of like um and things like like rape and I mean all kinds of things that are not not normally in a healthy society are not present but anyway that’s neither here nor there that’s not that’s those are they are exceptions by and large but um but the animal world is not as yeah I

mean depends on what you call cruel too but but there I think it’s about what what you were saying were you saying now Heidi but about the mind the way the mind um and that’s I think what what then you see in animal societies too that if the if the circumstances become too stressful then there’s a kind of something happens in the mind that distorts things and then the behavior becomes apparent And anyway that’s that’s a tangent no but I think it’s right the only thing is an animal cannot be deliberately

cruel you know like I I heard that um in in the war was already more or less over japain has asked for for peace but um there was the plan to try out the atomic bombs and so they they prolonged the war for to be able to throw down on on civil on civil people you know and they eliminated very many many people but this was pre how do you say premarited pre premeditated premeditated yeah and that’s what animals can’t do yeah well the all of those things i mean it’s it’s um you were saying in the beginning about pride

um or Han was saying um now I forget who’s saying what but the that um yeah you were saying talking about pride in the Jean Key context that I think um I mean that’s what I’ve learned since I’ve studied Catholicism because I didn’t grow up in any particular religion but it’s it’s amazing when I think about you know the seven deadly sins and um look at them you know the way I look at the Buddhist lists how in fact the the so-called seven deadly sins really are the culprits in in like the the whole distortion of human society

that that you know one one or another of these things is going to get in the way of love and of act of justice and mercy and you know all the all the the virtues um and pride’s always at the top and I’ve realized that that no matter what you look at it seems it always comes back to a form of pride the the the actual act may seem far removed but it seems like that um and and in I think in most of the world religions pride is is like in the stories of creation it’s always pride that causes the the downfall like the separation

from from the you know God or the divine or the good um so I would say that pride is is sort of the key to understanding human nature in some way what do you think i think on that level let’s connect this egotism yeah same thing yeah it’s just a semantic thing but Well in Austria we have now a lawsuit that has been going on for 16 years 16 years and it’s caused by political uh ambition and it’s the lawyers and it’s the state but the state is all in a certain direction they feel they have to they are they are proud of

being able to to really torture that one politician uh because he was he is handsome he was rich he married a very rich and beautiful woman he had children so they really it’s envy and pride so it’s uh it’s a connection and tomorrow will be the final uh judgment after 16 years and it’s ridiculous it’s it’s again it’s embarrassing that our judicial system is supporting this kind of jurisdiction and I feel there is the in in German we have the big we have the term frame shaman so you really feel ashamed for somebody else that they can

act the way they act and uh yeah it’s and this kind of development has been going on for quite some time and uh I’m wondering how America will find its way out of this kind of predicament but we’ll see and today I read that that Putin doesn’t want to absorb all of Europe uh well ridiculous so ridiculous what they are writing Who wants to have Europe this the downfalling decaying societies which we are here who wants to have that and the burden of what is going on here that’s absurd’s no I was gonna say that’s a perfect

example of human nature it’s it’s it’s pride at the expense of reason and that’s that’s what we see in all the all the the politicians I mean the prominent politicians now that it’s it’s it’s a kind of it’s delusion I mean in Buddhism you would call it delusion that greed hatred and delusion are the three you know the three components and um and they’re all present I mean interestingly enough they’re all together with some of these these leaders where they have you know this unlimited greed of ac they

want to acquire more and more and more whether it’s power or money or influence or it doesn’t matter It’s all greed and hatred because they have to have an othering an enemy and then delusion because it’s all absolute madness anyone with reason would look at the whole picture and say “This makes no sense.” Like what what could what could you know there’s no absolutely no reason whatsoever behind these actions and these ideas so it’s totally delusional and they but they work in a perfect package you have the the greed and

hatred and delusion all sort of reinforcing each other in this kind of circle it’s um well it’s c decades though it’s centuries in Gaza that has been going on and on and on and it defies any kind of reason also what we are doing here is this defies any kind of reason yeah still in this idea that we are superior we are Europeans but Europe is is is doesn’t mean anything we are on the on the mercy of America and not only on the mercy but also on the command of America if we want to do something we I mean

first all Europeans we are different we don’t really feel like a unity completely no but even if we did we had no we have no real power i mean it’s a delusion to to to want to do something oneself we have given our power away after the last world war and we are no sovereignity anymore you know maybe before we were I don’t know but not after that because all our structures are only only thing about the the social media we don’t have social media we don’t have Amazon in Europe or thing something like that it’s all

America all these things uh the information our information is owned by America the the the military superiority is the control i heard the the the airplanes and whatever the the the weapons you know they are always American software so America can decide to that the airplanes cannot fly when they don’t want so what Europa or Europe what do they want you know they are they still live as if they were 200 years 300 years ago and the big powers of the world they are not anymore but still we are we can tell Putin what

he needs to do haha you know for me it’s exactly an an example of what you are saying about the delusion of of what we what we think we are and this is in the in the states but that’s also the people you know everyone of us to to a certain degree maybe somebody is a little bit more rational but uh most of us we think we are I don’t know I have to share that I have to share a few years ago many years ago actually I was doing Barbara Marx Hubbbert’s conscious evolution journeys and I remember I because I was the only

South African person from Africa dur at that time doing these type of things I was always alone I was always the only one from this continent so I had to slot in with the Europeans and what I found very interesting at that time was my body clinched by at this it was not even something I thought it was my body responded to it at the time is the Europeans would talk about like Europe is the most advanced civilization in the world and I always cringed and I and I always thought what makes you think you

are the most advanced in in from in from what perspective because you have to look at a specific lens to say and what do you base that on but I remember I was always just I didn’t say anything because I was just always quiet and I just thought well good for believe that’s what you believe but I I’m fascinated by that that you think you are you know you are the most sophisticated in the world you know the you know the most and then you talk about consciousness evolution so it’s already in it’s like spiritual spiritual

um um superiority you know it’s it’s something to do with that you know that there’s this superiority and I recently had and last week as my daughter and I attended a session about a woman who’s doing really amazing things with children in the UK amazing things they can read a book blindfolded putting their hand on the book and they can read the whole book for you without seeing it with their eyes she does amazing things for them but she was talking not about them in the session she we thought a

procession was going to be about that because we’re really curious about that and she was talking about different spiritual levels and there was so much arrogance and superiority as well so it’s not just in the physical world that we find this type of egotism it’s also in spiritual communities so it’s across board you know where you speak about the invisible or the visible it’s it was and what I said to my daughter after was we were both kind of shocked by the way she was speaking i just said to her I didn’t

experience any love you know when you speak about love somebody speak about love you normally feel it you can feel the love when somebody speaks it and it was really just mental um a concept it was not you couldn’t feel at all love during the whole session and I think that at the at the core of it is our ability to just go back to love because that’s what the whole universe is based on and that is unity that’s not all the separation yeah and that’s why we in Europe have uh invented good things developed good

things music and poetry and literature and everything and and science at the beginning and so we are still living in this as if this that was a merit and is a merit but as if it is still reality as if we are still continuing to be the first in in developing all these uh arts or also scientific stuff but we are far away from that and we are still living as if you know once we did a big thing and now for all life as for hundreds of years this is uh that’s always like that that’s not and we don’t want to to see that others

are let’s say catching up or even uh overtaking us you know so well Heidi what you were to bring it full circle to when you were talking about um the Italians and the websites and everything and I suddenly just now talking about the this idea of of you know like what we call it resting on your laurels that whatever it is you achieved in the past and um it suddenly gave me a flashback to um one of our many trips uh when we lived in Vienna we were we had to go to Italy all the time cuz my husband was um the world

authority on Italian old masters and Rafael especially anyway we we flew into Rome um one particular trip cuz we always took a taxi from the airport to the hotel and um the taxi driver who was a real barbarian like really you know like like a real taxi driver it wasn’t like sometimes in New York you get a taxi driver who has a doctorate in you know German literature or something but he can’t get a job um this guy was like a the quintessential taxi driver and as we were driving along because he didn’t

know who we were we were you know I mean he didn’t know that we knew Italian culture so he was he was kind of waving his arm wildly while he was driving he said look at this grandeur he said we are the greatest people on the planet earth we always have been look at these great ruins and and um and he was going on and on about ancient you know the Roman Empire and I could hardly keep from just laughing because it was so um I thought that’s so typical and and actually Henry Miller the the the writer

um the first time I went to Greece my mother gave me this book by um by Henry Miller um where He he he writes about the the contrast between ancient Greece and modern Greece and he exposes it and and he wrote that like in the I don’t know in the 50s or something um but it’s even more so like that about how the Greeks are the modern Greeks are basically barbarians but they also rest on the laurels of ancient Greece and so they don’t they don’t notice that like all this the beaches are full of litter

and the people are you know they just have no manners and everything is is chaotic and dirty and um no one’s educ you know cares about education anyway I’m rambling again but um but I think that’s so interesting that that that’s human nature too that whatever you you you aggrandise whatever came from the past the glory the ancient glory to cling to what once you was great and you were great and now you are great for all your life and even your you know something like that that has something to do with this I don’t want to say

capitalism but with this uh society where what you right-handedly where you need to be the first the the the bravest the the best and everything that’s just an idea of how to organize uh society and that doesn’t seem to be the best one and before you were talking about um uh being the best and so on and it came to my mind Ken Wilbur says uh natural hierarchy so everybody has something where he or she is good and there she should take the leadership in this area and not in others and we have the habit

or not we but in our societies that one is considered a leader for everything and they have no idea of the most things maybe one one area they know but the rest they don’t and this is necessarily leading to disaster in my in my mind you know so human mind human arrogance human nature maybe not nature you know maybe it’s just a bad habit a bad idea of how to organize life that comes to my mind because I still do believe that human nature that innately we are good if we are not distorted right away or even in the

belly or with karma from past generations but I do believe that there is much good if it can develop and this is a good thing too here ladies we at the end a little check out maybe that’s lovely idea I love your kitty there it’s just like exactly the the beauty the good the it’s just you know you can feel it in your cells it’s amazing thank you for that yeah so let’s just try to avoid disaster and stem the flow and in about 10 years we will know more see you then i’ll only be 93 so I could manage oh god

okay check out Victoria um well I just wanted to say I I really love this group and um I’m so glad I I really look forward to it because it’s it seems like more and more infrequently one can have a really good conversation people are so um focused on just you know the material things i I really I really treasure this group that that we actually I just have to like bone up on my integral theory i kind of came in under false pretense that’s my check out yeah and what would I say take your stand and keep your stand

and don’t get corrupted by what is I mean going with the flow yeah but not uh betraying yourself uh that’s what I I would say and uh keep some of humor because otherwise these times you you cannot you cannot tolerate and so I’m when I hear all these news as as horrible as they are but I start to laugh you know because that’s such a bad comedy on a bad theater uh you know so let’s hope they will play a better piece next time okay thank you bye-bye ladies it is