Becoming human:

# Reflections on Humanity, Connection, and Societal Challenges in a Global Conversation

## Summary

This conversation among a group of friends or colleagues touches on a wide array of human experiences and societal issues, anchored by themes of personal growth, connection, and the evolving challenges of living in a complex world. They begin by sharing personal life updates, including family milestones such as the arrival of a great-grandchild and reflections on aging, health, and resilience. The participants share joys and sorrows, including stories of illness, the death of a college friend, and the bittersweet nature of fleeting family visits.

Central to the dialogue is a philosophical exploration of what it means to be human, particularly from the perspectives of childhood development, trauma, healing, and lifelong learning. They discuss the biological and emotional challenges babies face in becoming human, the impact of trauma on body and mind, and the continuous journey of self-improvement. The conversation touches on the crucial role of curiosity and perseverance throughout life and the importance of connection—both emotional and physical—in healthy development.

The group also critiques current political and social climates globally—highlighting rising conservatism, women’s rights being challenged, cultural integration issues, and the dangers of extremist ideologies such as those impacting Europe and North America. They reflect on the history of women’s liberation, acknowledging the privileges gained by past generations and expressing concern for regression in freedoms, especially in relation to political Islam and systemic disenfranchisement.

Throughout, the participants emphasize the importance of empathy, dialogue, and the ongoing task of teaching and nurturing the next generation amidst turmoil. They appreciate the rare and valuable opportunity to exchange ideas without offense, nurturing freedom and respect. The conversation closes with wishes for well-being and a hopeful outlook that reason, peace, and connection will prevail despite the times’ difficulties.

## Highlights
– 🌱 The lifelong process of becoming and being human involves curiosity, perseverance, and self-improvement.
– 👶 Early childhood development is marked by frustration and learning, highlighting the complexity of growth.
– 💔 Stories of loss and illness underscore life’s fragility and the importance of connection.
– 🧠 Trauma manifests physically and emotionally, affecting expression and requiring healing modalities.
– 🕊️ Concern over rising political extremism and cultural fragmentation globally.
– 👩‍⚖️ Deep appreciation for women’s rights achieved, mixed with fears of regression.
– 🤝 The value of respectful, open dialogue as a foundation for understanding and freedom.

## Key Insights

– 🌟 **Human Development as a Complex Journey:** The dialogue underscores that becoming fully human is not instantaneous but a complex, lifelong process involving physical, emotional, and cognitive development. Babies’ frustration with motor skills and gradual coordination symbolize the broader human condition of trial, error, and perseverance. This invites us to view personal growth with patience and compassion, appreciating that learning never stops.

– 🧬 **Physical Body and Trauma Interaction:** One speaker highlights the profound connection between trauma and the body’s biomechanics—trauma can distort posture and limit emotional expression, which in turn affects mental health. This insight aligns with somatic psychology principles and suggests that healing trauma requires integrated approaches addressing both mind and body.

– 👵 **Aging and the Cycle of Life:** Stories of ailing friends and relatives juxtaposed with the vitality of new babies illustrate life’s cyclical nature and the spectrum between growth and decline. This contrast invites reflection on dignity in aging, the pain of loss, and the joy of new beginnings as fundamental parts of the human experience.

– 🎭 **Sociopolitical Climate and Feminism:** The group examines current political realities, noting alarming rises in right-wing conservatism, political Islam’s challenges to women’s freedoms in Europe, and disenfranchisement in North America. They express concern about reversals in gender equality and cultural integration, warning against complacency and stressing the need to protect hard-won freedoms.

– 📚 **The Role of Education and Curiosity:** Curiosity is identified as a driving force for lifelong learning and self-betterment. The participants emphasize learning to learn as crucial, noting that negative educational experiences can inhibit growth. They advocate for education systems that nurture curiosity and resilience, key for facing complex future challenges.

– 🤝 **Importance of Connection:** The conversation repeatedly underlines the essential human need for close connection—between parent and child, among friends, within society—to foster health, growth, and resistance to alienation. The baby’s interactions with family and pets exemplify nurturing environments as foundations for emotional and social development.

– 🌍 **Global Challenges Require Mature Dialogue:** With the rise of misinformation, extremism, and cultural clashes, the participants recognize the difficulty but necessity of respectful, reasoned discourse. Their own exchange models how listening without offense and sharing diverse views are critical for maintaining democratic values and humanity.

This multifaceted conversation presents a rich tapestry of personal reflection and societal critique, offering nuanced perspectives on how to navigate the challenges of becoming and being human in a rapidly shifting world.

00:00:03
So, women met us the first time in September 2026. Here in Italy, the heat is still, as you can see, I’m dripping. It’s still going on, but next week it should be better. Uh, altogether it’s fine on my side. I’m at the moment alone and I’m preparing for for the fest and cleaning and making order and all things which have been left out for a long time and now it’s an occasion to you know to how do you say put uh get up with a butt and do [laughter] something. So I’m in this phase and um I’m glad that

00:00:48
Gout will come and uh next week to see us. So Christine, 8 years ago, 9 years ago, or eight and a half, you were here. It’s time that you come back. Gina, when was it when you were here? It’s also time to come [laughter] back. You as mute. >> I think around that time. >> Around that time, maybe. Yeah, >> it’s hard to know. I mix it up with your my conversations with you and Mark. >> Yeah, it’s time ago. It’s time to come back. And Mona, I try to to attract her

00:01:26
to come over, but she refused. She says she is too old. >> Who is too old? >> But not right now. It’s not possible. >> No, not now. It’s clear. But you know, let’s go on in life. And I give over to Mona for the check in. >> Yes, in Vienna we had nice days, cooler days supposedly. It’s getting hot tomorrow, but this will be the last day, the last hot day. And the nights are rather cool. We had 14 centigrates, so that’s really cool. And yeah, it was very nice to sleep. Well, I’m still

00:02:06
um very much attracted to mong majong beta and majong blast two groups. And I find myself it’s really a a concentration meditation. It’s onepointed concentration and [clears throat] I’m enjoying it. It’s uh still and we I’m playing about 4 hours a day, sometimes five. And there were times when I played six [snorts] and then I decided it’s too much. But uh I sort of uh yeah it’s it’s uh an immediate gratification when you solve it and so I really enjoy it and I’ll see how long it will last and of

00:02:57
course I only have my small and it would be nice on a tablet and and better to see but still on the other hand uh there is not well we were all astonished by the not really astonished it was to be expected by the uh election results in Germany and yeah and tonight we’ll have an interview of uh the party leader of our right conservative party so we’ll see how he responds to that and uh Yeah, that’s about my grand great grandchild, my great grandchild is doing fine. She will be three months

00:03:49
on Tuesday or Wednesday. Wednesday and she is already trying to crawl and she can’t yet. And she gets so frustrated her her hands don’t move right. She just does with her legs and and then she cries out. And so it’s really oh it’s very very hard to become a human being. [laughter] Yeah. >> So but still we get beautiful photographs of her and everybody’s so much in love with her. It’s really nice. Okay. I give on to Christine. >> What’s her name? Emily. >> I don’t know why they choose a French

00:04:36
sounding name, but it’s Emily. So, yeah. >> Okay. It is hot here also, but uh nights are a little bit cooler, so it we get a little relief at nighttime, but yeah, it’s still quite warm. Um, Tom had a birthday this week, so we celebrated that by going to the movies because they have air conditioning. [laughter] And we went to see The Odyssey, which u was very long. It was very loud. I put in earplugs um because it was so loud. Uh neither of us liked the movie very much. It was okay, but it’s not like

00:05:21
something I would tell you you just got to see. Um, and then my daughter Alexis had been here. Uh, I didn’t see you guys two weeks ago, so she was leaving around that time and I had a mamogram that Monday morning. But, um, that was nice. It was nice to have her come. She packed up all her stuff in a pod. I don’t know if you guys have that, but there’s a pod and you fill it with all your stuff and then the pod gets shipped to wherever you want it to be delivered. So, she did that. Um, left a

00:05:56
lot of stuff behind. I don’t know. We got still have a lot of her her stuff in our house, but it was good to see her. Then, it was also hard when she left because it was like having to go through that all over again, having her here and enjoying it and then having her leave. So, um, but that’s about it. I guess everything else is okay. trying to think if there’s anything important to report, but um I every every day I think you guys are laughing about Trump, which is great. Like every day something comes up in the

00:06:36
news this that’s just more unbelievable than the day before. And now, well, I mean, there’s so many things, but um one of the bigger things is the 25th anniversary of 9/11 is on Friday, and of course at 25 years, they’re going to have a lot of memorials and a lot of things. So, the one in New York, all the former presidents are going and the only president not going is Donald Trump. So, why would that be? He’s a New Yorker, right? So, um, it turns out he they don’t do speeches at the memorials.

00:07:16
There’s no political speeches. There’s no getting up and somebody talking like they want to talk. It’s a memorial. And so, he decided he didn’t want to go because they weren’t going to let him talk, which it’s just it it it’s mind-blowing. It’s unbelievable. So, that’s that’s the latest news. We’ll see what happens today or tomorrow. So, I will turn it over to um Gina. >> Oh, we’re staying in North America. Um thank you, Christine. Um and we’re not

00:07:48
actually laughing, by the way. Um it’s too serious to laugh. Um yes, and it is certainly everybody knows where they were on that day. So, um it’s a big day for all of us. Um here we have our moderate temperatures. So, we’re actually only 16° at the moment. So, we’re having our cool nights. 22 23 during the day. Yesterday, we had a beautiful blue sky and it was just crystal blue. Perfect. Um, our fires are coming down. Um in terms of school the uh data analytics tool in vivo the university

00:08:26
didn’t manage to renew it properly and so anybody doing data analysis has been stuck since about the 28th um with early September to get back to work. So um as frustrating as that is it forced me to get writing on my methodology. So I’m starting the writing of thesis and I haven’t done writing for almost a year academic writing for a year. So, it’s good to actually write about something having actually done it versus pontificate. How might I do this research? Things changed from the plan.

00:08:54
What a surprise. Um, other than that, I’ve finished the book, The Wizard of Us, and so really appreciate that ref uh referral to Jane Houston. It was an interesting interesting way to look at the fable. So, I’m on the search for my next book. So, we’ll see. Um, in terms of topics, I’m sort of thinking I like your comment, Mona, like how it’s not easy to be human. And I I there’s something about it is an ongoing thing. And that’s exactly what Houston said at the end of it. It’s our

00:09:23
job to be the best we can be and it takes forever. So enjoy the ride. And with that, I’ll turn it over to Gartrid. Can you hear me? Okay. So, um talking about books this morning. I was in um in the appreciative inquiry Europe group that meets once a month and we just shared what has happened over the the summer because we didn’t meet in August and um [clears throat] and and then like do I have a story to tell or a movie to propose or a book or something and I’m going to have the list of those books

00:10:29
uh what they share and it was so interesting I cannot it was just too quick too many uh but uh as soon as I have the list I will send it to Heidi and or to everyone and um so that that was because it was really like um What did they call it? Uh, one was called the moral ambition or yeah, things like that. So, just wait [laughter] till that. Um, I have spent last week in bed well really with fever, not high but my head was just I couldn’t think. I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t go for a walk or

00:11:28
um do groceries or anything. So my my husband was not here. He came back yesterday. Uh so for a week he was uh doing a a photo gig and um my I’ve never seen my fridge really empty. I mean, it was nothing left and I lost a little bit and um but I was knocked out really like just lying in bed not even reading and um my my voice was the first that was gone and maybe it’s the last that will [snorts] need to recover. So, I didn’t do much last week. >> Actually, nothing. >> And I’m happy that the W the celebration

00:12:28
is still almost two weeks. So, I Yeah, I can recover more easily. >> Otherwise, we do a voice lesson and the voice comes back. >> Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. >> Um and um now it’s official. So, the 12 weeks are over. Um, and I can announce that we will have a six sixth grandchild >> in March. [snorts] I’m I think I mean the our youngest will turn 40 next year, so I think that will be the last in that. Well, you never know. Um [snorts] but it’s it’s kind of

00:13:20
yeah there is an opening for that and and um I mean she was pretty she had a she had a what do you uh call it miscarriage um with two and that really knocked her out. So it took quite a while till she dared again and this time she said don’t talk don’t don’t say anything after the 3 months are over. So I’m pretty happy about this and I hope she’s fine and healthy and everything goes fine. [snorts] So that’s there was something else I wanted to share but my head is a little still past

00:14:07
catch. >> So we go on a little bit we have already >> 15 minutes past. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> So uh what I find interesting dinina with the wizard of o tried to find it as an audio book. I couldn’t find it as an audio book and at the moment I’m only a I think an ebook and I’m sitting so much on the computer my is already you know hurting there from all the time hanging like this so I don’t want to read books on on computer if I and I’m very much auditive and I

00:14:41
would love to have it as audio book um but I still have in my ear the voice of Jane Houston when she talks about it when in in certain courses she was talking about the wizard of earth and how she sees the whole thing. That’s really wonderful. Unfortunately, she is not let’s say in the range of people who are now considered to be worthwhile to appear on audible. So, okay, what does it become to become a human? And I would add an adult human because you know many of us stuck get stuck in a certain earlier age. I just

00:15:30
um uh heard some talks from oh god I’ve forgotten the name. Um a person who lives in Israel but the teachers in America and other people about Nazism and things like that and one I mean he says we all have narcissism [laughter] to a certain degree you know so uh I’m I’m wondering about our psychologist only one today you are not psychologist Gina only you’re getting your head around many of these topics but not as a professional so what makes a little child a human and How does mix

00:16:20
the years a human to adult human hopefully. So that would be my suggestion of topic and not a narcissist human or whatever other disturbances are there uh psychopath, sociopath or whatever there is, you know. So how can we grow up and be healthy? Sort of healthy at least. my suggestion for the topic. >> I want to jump in with something completely different than normally. Um, learning the healing human stuff. Um, [clears throat] I I got how how the body gets changed through trauma. So like almost

00:17:15
distorted sometimes. Um that end if you have like if you’re like this to smile is very hard. So not to feel the trauma and to survive. The body reacts in a certain way which gives you the um like attention here and uh too loose here or whatever. And and then you cannot feel certain emotions. you cannot express certain motion uh emotions. So this I find it completely fascinating. So the archetypes that um we were talking about they are also like if you have a trauma then you have like maybe sadness or or rage or whatever you

00:18:21
couldn’t express at that time and then you jump to another um emotion like but it’s more superficial. It’s not the deep down. It’s it’s more like um I was not allowed to be sad so I even smile at a at a funeral or make jokes. So this this let’s say superficial or or triggered emotion when there’s something you normal a normal human being would be sad [laughter] and then to to work on this and by changing the biomechanics you can really like yeah turn the clock back in in

00:19:15
many ways. And it’s not not only biomechanics, it’s it’s also the mindset where they have uh they come from the archetypes and say okay your superficial um emotion might be this or is this and then we work in a protocol to get deeper. But I thought it’s um I I I just want to share a um a picture with you which really amazed me. Um my one of my granddaughters, she was in the bowl in a boulder thing and just jumping down and just Yeah. And her father can hold her up and and she can hold herself and so

00:20:11
so it’s it’s both. It’s like when you in a like you don’t have sports at school or uh they skip it because math is more important then then even if it’s not a trauma in in the normal sense but it’s a trauma for kids to sit five hours in a row and not being able to move. So even then you you infuse something that that will distort the emotions. So because they cannot move in a certain way or they sit too much in so I I’m I’m so fascinated by how that works together the body emotion

00:21:03
mind um complex and wherever you start and and do something that’s not good for your for your humanity I would say then yeah there will the effects and and it’s the question where do you start or or what is the appropriate means to to get back to that? Is it like biomechanics? Is it therapy? Is it whatever to bring you back to what makes a human with full self-expression? linking this to Mon [laughter] >> linking this to Mona and your observation of your greatgrandchild uh how do you think that we these babies

00:22:05
and the parents how can they avoid uh let’s say a restriction as Gatra describes >> well uh as far as I see my grandchild, my granddaughter, uh she holds the baby constantly. She has something to to tie around her waist and so it always has her heartbeat and um her uh it’s like therapy actually when you hold your baby like this. And uh now she try she’s more satisfied when she turns around and looks around and wherever there is a noise or a voice she knows she turns her head and in her in

00:22:55
the baby carriage she lies on her tummy and she looks outside. So, um I guess three 3 months is just too early to uh being close to your mother and your father all the time. Uh I guess helps a lot as well. Um, and even the dog, I have some photographs now. When the dog, the dog comes and tries to lick her hands and so she is really surrounded by love all the time. It’s it’s yeah, it’s beautiful to watch. friends and her aunt, the sister of my great daughter, granddaughter. Um, she will be the Christianing

00:23:56
whatever that is. Uh, and >> we say God, we say godmother. >> Godmother, >> godmother. She will be a godmother. And she also when you see the photographs, how she holds her and how she, as you show, they are all so intrigued by the baby. It’s it’s beautiful. It’s just beautiful to watch. And yeah, that’s about all I can can say that I observe. Uh yeah, and she is very maybe that’s in our family. She’s very impatient with herself. So she really they they give her all

00:24:36
these uh beautiful things to look at. Black and white bread. That’s supposedly the colors they can see at that time. And you can see she she tries to reach them and when she can’t reach them, she is frustrated. So it she is very impatient with herself. But it’s uh on the other hand, she finally grabbed one of these things that make noise that hang down. Oh, and she grabbed it. And the way she she was fascinated that she could make it move and sound so that it’s Yeah, it’s just beautiful to watch.

00:25:17
>> So we don’t even see it live. Do you conclude that curiosity and wanting to do something, wanting to to reach something, wanting to reach something and be curious is this part of becoming human in your uh I hear that in what you are saying and also the impatient impatient is is the part of becoming human >> at her age she it’s it’s probably she will put everything in her mouth right now because she found when she finds it, she hasn’t really found it yet, but she tries to to put her hand to her mouth.

00:25:56
So, it takes a long time to get the brain coordinated. That’s Yeah. And Yeah. And it takes a rather short time to lose it all because uh something that really depressed me the last couple of days is that a very important man in my life uh he has I don’t know how it’s caki I don’t know how it spelled in English. So he loses his muscle power and it went so fast and so he can uh it’s just he doesn’t want to be visited. He just is too proud. I don’t know. But it’s really depressing at the same time

00:26:50
that you can lose it so quickly and he doesn’t even have the power to sit up in bed for example. So that’s that’s the two opposites I have in my life right now. The one that’s >> who are you talking about going down >> who are you talking about the lost >> a friend of mine a lifelong friend and I had my first experience of cosmic consciousness with him. So that’s what makes him very special. >> But still yeah that’s And I’m trying to find a balance and

00:27:30
heal a mantra most of the time. And whenever I notice that I tend towards depression, not too foric. [sighs] Okay. I I um also found out of a loss. My college roommate passed away. And um you know, it’s funny. She lives on the other side of the country. we don’t see each other or have much contact, but the world feels different to me now that I know this. She’s been she passed away at the end of March, so obviously it’s not a new ripple in the universe, but um for me it is to to know

00:28:12
that she’s no longer here. And uh it was weird. I had made arrangements with her that we were going to meet in March [clears throat] in Virginia. And um it was all planned out and then she was a no-show and I knew she had health problems. So I didn’t think to I mean I tried to contact her but I heard nothing from her. Nothing. And so you’re kind of like is there something wrong? Is she mad at me? You know is there something what happened? So I didn’t know. Um and then our college reunion is coming up.

00:28:49
So I reached out to her again to see if she would be going in April next next year and never heard from her. So long story short, I contacted her brother um who I also know and he was the one who told me she passed away in March and that was right around the time I was supposed to get together with her. So it was kind of sudden. Um her decline was was quite precipitous and and quick. Um, but it it’s just a weird thing that I keep every time she pops into my head. There’s just kind of a little bit of a earthquakey

00:29:26
shakiness to to realize she’s no longer here. And I guess mostly what I’m sad about is, you know, I don’t get to talk to her again. You know, there’s there’s no goodbye. There’s no closure. Um, I don’t get to see her again. And of course my regret is that we we didn’t take more of an opportunity. It was very hard living on opposite sides of the country but still felt like I wish um had I known I would have done something. So that’s the sad part. And um I don’t and in terms of your

00:30:03
topic, Gertroud, I don’t know. It it I think we need to make sure that we don’t confuse trauma and other life circumstances that actually promote resilience because if you’re a baby learning to crawl, that’s your biology is telling you, you know, this is what you’re supposed to be doing to develop. I mean, it’s not even even with frustration, that’s probably a good thing. We have to be persistent and motivated and and that baby’s working working out that balance between its

00:30:35
frustration and its motivation. And um I don’t know I you know when it comes to education there’s so many clearly established principles about how how to educate children and what are the best practices. So I find it interesting that people just don’t follow them or they don’t utilize them when you know it’s it’s pretty clear what is helpful to make help children learn. So interesting. Interesting. That’s my two cents. Oh, and I did want to mention that Lorraine is now in France at her

00:31:12
family’s um wedding in uh in the Normandy area. So that’s where she is today. >> [snorts] >> Well, I’ll I’ll share just it’s it’s funny how topics sort of weave each other. So, um the baby’s curiosity and the frustration, but then the absolute delight of eventually being successful and that perseverance. Uh it’s it’s interesting but the thing I found in my research is that uh the the people who I’ve interviewed for most part are very they’re like 70s 80s close to 90s some

00:31:58
of them and curiosity just keeps coming up and and the curiosity that that doesn’t matter what the topic is. It’s just that there’s this curious longing but also they also said they want to be the b best person they can be. So there’s a curiosity to keep themselves uh thinking but also they say I have to keep improving myself whether it’s physically mentally or my ability to tolerate others and it’s that continued connection and hence the the baby’s comfort from once being in the mother to

00:32:35
feeling close to mother. It’s that connection and if we lose that connection then I think all sorts of other things come in that aren’t necessarily the best thing for us. But uh I I think it’s interesting and I had a friend who was going through some challenges were looking after her father and um she had some raiki and the woman said your feet are in cement like you’ve got so much weight in your feet and if we can release some of the energy out of your feet maybe that will get you

00:33:04
started and moving in a direction that helps both you and your dad. But there’s just so much so much going on. And uh I think the thing I liked about the wizard of us was there’s a lot of sessions in it where she does the guided meditation. So I actually recorded them Heidi because I can’t do read a meditation and do a meditation. And she really talked about like just start dealing with yourself and because you have you have so much control over yourself and it’s no different than the instant healing. I

00:33:32
mean there’s a lot we can do and uh so I don’t think the job of being human is ever over for what that’s worth and learning learning to learn. Um, Christine, I read this great article about educators in the states saying, “We’ve got to get back to making learning a positive experience.” And I’d say part of my research was the negative experiences. And people who said, “I didn’t learn how to learn until university.” And learning to learn is what we essentially are built of. It’s the

00:34:04
ability to learn. Occasionally not learn. That’s it. There’s a good definition of narcissism. A narcissist is some maybe somebody who thinks they don’t need to learn anything because they already know it all and everybody else is still trying to learn and figure things out. Narcissist doesn’t feel that way. [laughter] >> Your president is a good example. A really good >> [clears throat] [snorts] >> I’m I’m curious, is there much news about either the death of Dolly

00:34:59
Parton or Gloria Steinum? Because we’re getting, you know, there’s all kinds of tributes to both of them. Um, and interestingly, people kind of they’re opposite sides of the same coin in terms of Gloria Steinum being very um, explicit about women’s rights and women’s freedoms and Dolly Parton looked the part of a very dalled up kind of, you know, what’s the word to the extreme, right? you know, feminine to, you know, to the point where it’s kind of laughable, but she was also a

00:35:40
feminist in everything she did really. Um, she knew how to handle herself and be her best self and that’s why everybody, you know, we hear so much [clears throat] about her that’s positive because she really knew how to be she really was a unique person and knew how to be herself. So, do you guys hear much news about them or tributes? I I have never heard the both names, so I don’t know. >> Gloria Steinum, feminist from the 60s and 70s, the women’s movement. >> Heidi, I don’t believe it.

00:36:17
>> And don’t just she’s just the icon. >> I was not very much Americanoriented in these times. We had Ali Swatza and somebody else, you know, >> not really [clears throat] in the American culture. >> So, I don’t know. >> Interesting. Cuz she’s What was that? Miz magazine that she started. >> Miz. Yeah. >> Yeah. She’s been around for a long time up here. Um, I’d say both. I mean, I think I Dolly was Dolly and I and what I’ve really loved is since she’s passed is is

00:36:54
that she wrote a book and she talks about why she wanted to get dalled up like you know the in the small town that she was from and uh but it bel her her generosity and feminist attitudes and it I think it really came out it’s coming out in After Death that we’re finding out more about her because I’m not I wouldn’t never think of reading a book about Gloria Steinum, I think it’s just a reminder uh of of [snorts] how at the moment there’s a real push for masculinity in this world. Uh and taking

00:37:27
away the feminine power and and it’s a reminder that we didn’t even get this far. At least in North America, we’ll say in North America, people take it for granted. And now when it’s being threatened, people are like, “Oh, I’m okay with that.” I’m like, what? >> You’re okay with not voting and letting your husband vote for you? Really? Um, so it’s if nothing else, her death is maybe a reminder that we didn’t get here um magically or with the help of you

00:38:02
know or at the I would say at the initiation of men. They certainly weren’t interested in us having any of this confidence or access to schools or being judges or doctors and >> having rights. But uh >> now Heidi >> conduces it conduces me to say how grateful we need to be for what we were able our generation of women what we were able to do with my mother couldn’t do and who knows where it is going because at the moment uh women are sort of discarded by uh men who pretend to be

00:38:44
women and um and push us out again. I mean out of our feminine uh dignity also. No. So I’m very very curious how that will go. Maybe I won’t live enough to to see that. But the gratitude for having been able to do what we could do what we are and we think it is normal to be a woman and have this liberty, this freedom. Yeah, I mean we have other reminders that it is not normal. You know when I see the also here in Italy the women with um wrapped up in their in their in their how do you call

00:39:32
>> hijab hijabs >> and then having children uh in different ages with them. I think does it come back also into our uh societies that the women have to be in the role of breeding the food the the the foder how do you say that for the wars to to to to create boys for for fighting the wars of some crazy um powerdriven politicians. So that’s not what I imagined about being a woman, but I have never thought about it because we could live in this way and we could go. I still had to be

00:40:17
21 to have an own bank account. But you know, so Heidi, 1975, a working woman in Canada could not open her own bank account or have a charge card. She needed a male signature. It could be a husband, a brother, as long as it was a man. Like 1975, it not [laughter] >> init my mother was curious. >> In Switzerland 19 71 was the last canton that uh granted uh the vote for women. So it might be a short period you know when we thought of now finally we are there and it will be for eternity. So

00:41:11
>> let’s have somehow >> go ahead. >> Somehow I think when when Christine started and said um that uh every day there’s a new outrageous something. Um, in another context in Lenmark, we we uh sometimes we went to problems um like turning on the volume, exaggerated, exaggerate the problem you have like with man, with whatever and until you even your own brain doesn’t believe you anymore. So you you and we made fun uh like turning on our voice and yes they are the the worst in the world and blah blah

00:42:09
blah blah blah and and then at some point you had to laugh and [clears throat] and somehow I think this exaggeration and how how that’s turning out it’s So against uh democracy, against human um life, against women, against whatever um that at a certain point I have I have the feeling that even MAGA starts like what [laughter] that’s not what I wanted. Uh so so like to to have this uh like a a character caricature of of normaly what you you you you I mean you say okay this is over the top

00:43:16
but um I can live with it and then more and more and more and all of a sudden it’s like that’s that’s not what we came here for or that’s not what the mosque uh at least and every day more uh will lead to that even his followers kind of that he uses them because it’s so beyond that um they would say okay let’s recalure what’s normal or what we really want and and because otherwise he would be a hero and if he dies he’s um the best but now he’s demon the demon deontager

00:44:18
to to >> demagogue. >> No, [snorts] demagogue is but demonized. Demonized >> demonized. >> No, what I mean he >> he’s like >> u >> cutting on the on the on the branch he’s sitting on. So he he is >> Yeah. and all of a sudden it falls down and and then he is no hero anymore for nobody or >> I think that is not only this person there are so many people around at the moment you know also Germany I mean it’s it’s a catastrophe what is going on

00:44:59
everywhere craziness with this uh trying to go into war by force and like masochism like self-destroying Europe They want to to be eliminated obviously because they don’t come to to a sense and I always hope that what you say that finally people understand what is going on and say no we want peace we don’t want demonize nobody and then go for this demonization go into a war no look what is going on you really and get the information which you don’t get and then make yourself think yourself

00:45:42
and find your own picture and see that it is going towards war. We have had that twice last century. Do you really want the third time? Oh dear. So my hope is what Grow says that it gets so crazy that people will wake up and see what they are going because we were always thinking in when I went to school how could it happen the second world war >> and now it’s it’s in in in real time you can observe it and that makes me crazy in a certain sense but also hopeful that we are a little bit more

00:46:21
evolved and enough people will see it in time. Hopefully. Hopefully. And if that gets crazier and crazier, then might be the point where the last thing says, “Oh, that doesn’t make sense.” Hopefully. That’s my five cents to say, just so you know, Canadians are not immune to this. We have um much like is happening elsewhere in the world, the manosphere, which demonizes women as the reason for men’s unhappiness. and [clears throat] the fact that they’re not getting married. They are

00:46:54
blaming women [snorts] >> um that are successful. They don’t like women being successful. And this is a bit of a movement and it’s a in Canada it’s it’s catching on because anytime there’s unemployment and disenfranchised men 17 to 25 whatever um it’s it’s appealing to belong to something that sense that we need to belong and it doesn’t matter how skewed it looks to us to them it’s it’s what they need it’s the way the world should be and it’s really hard to

00:47:26
bring people back from that. We have it and our what we call our rednecks. Um like Alberta is between me and the rest of Canada [laughter] and I we worry about them because Alberta people are actually pretty nice people but they’ve got these under swellings of disenfranchised men. Uh yeah. So I think keep going back to the positive. It’s why we have to continue um the work in whatever way we can of people like Dolly Parton or Steinum whether you knew or not whatever uh feminist women in like

00:48:06
in Europe or Africa it doesn’t really matter. It’s just that not not accepting that acquiescing is the way it should have always been and as you say a temporary blip where women got right out of control. You know we had the power before and they took it away 14th 17th century. So >> in Vienna we now have a problem with Muslim Muslim girls because uh there are certain associations who demand who will well actually they said they will find the parents if they force that girl to wear

00:48:48
a car whatever uh before the age of 14 I believe. So in elementary school, they want her covered up already. And now these certain associations that are [clears throat] promoted by our state and they are paid, they say they will pay the fine for the parents. So there is something terribly wrong uh with our supporting uh this kind of political Islam. And nobody well there are I don’t know how many but there are a couple of districts in Vienna that are totally Muslim already and they have this uh

00:49:33
so they they they check all the women whether they are dressed properly and so they finally uh the police doesn’t want to go there anymore and this is what really upsets at least some Vietnamese but of Of course, our uh our politics, our political systems um support. It’s because of the money. The more people you have in your city, the more tax refunds you get and the more taxes you get. And so this is why we are now Vienna now has more than 2 million inhabitants which it didn’t have a

00:50:17
couple of decades ago and they are Muslim. So what you can if you add one to two and two to four you know where this will go and this is that the women support they don’t the mothers or the the sisters they even insist that the child wears scarf. So it’s And of course they have their own culture. They don’t intend to integrate. They they only watch uh Turkish or whatever s Syrian television. They don’t watch Austrian television. So the only time they speak German is in in the school and

00:51:15
their German is well not very good right now. I was wondering whether they could learn English maybe because English is easier than German and start with English in first grade already. That’s what just what result that came up. Nevertheless, it’s there are many aspects in our politics that don’t really support women. That’s just a fact. >> What? That’s my >> what you just said reminds me of uh what was the the Palestinian woman? I think she died and one of the integral people

00:52:01
um who was >> Malu. >> Aa Malu the libanese woman. >> Yeah. Libanese. Yeah. And she she said at the beginning, I mean it was 2016 or so, she said that we in the west or in the north when it comes to Syria or so that we um don’t we have our values ex implicit and when they come um through the war or when they come, they don’t know our values. They they want freedom, but they don’t know the foundation how it’s built. And so when they don’t know it and we don’t teach them, then they go

00:53:03
by default to their own old stuff which created their not freedom. So, so that we have the um responsibility to to say freedom is based on this and if you don’t want to learn this then then you I mean we have we will have the same situation that you just escaped. So uh so so she was really like very strongly uh promoting us not to be too green and less a fair and ealitarian but to to really stand up for for what we created so that others can be free. We can be free and others can be free. And I think this egalitarian what

00:54:07
uh Ken Wilbur was also talking about in one of the the conferences, he said when you um are egalitarian with um um Taliban or so, he might just cut chop your head off. So this is I mean we we don’t honor like when you’re coming from the red maybe blue but with blue dots then you want to take over and and to allow that I think that’s that’s a a main um one of our yeah faults failures. I think that depends on our sort of um how could you say that when you are in a in a higher state of development but not

00:55:10
yet in integral you don’t see you think yours is the only situ your only right thing and you don’t understand that the others are different so you think what for you is normal also a psychological fact then that is normal and everybody is uh thinking feeling like you and then after a while you think oops >> it’s not like I remember very very clearly when it happened to me this inside you know it was oops surprising that others might not think and feel and so like me so if in an egalitarian level

00:55:48
you are you think everybody’s like I had it here with the Albanian people you know and that was really hard school to understand that my values are not their values and they are really ready to exploit you and [laughter] your egalitarian and giving attitude because they think you are crazy. If you give me these things, I take them, you know, even if you say that’s what who cares, I take it away, you know. So, it was a hard school for me to understand that um the own idea of how life should be is

00:56:23
not shared by others. And if you want to maintain that then you have exactly in a blue way to teach them and with very much strength. And this we as societies in the west we have forgotten not forgotten but not done. And then we are now dealing with the consequences and hopefully we will deal and and and as long as mainly still green and mainly >> and healthy green. Yeah. >> Yeah. then it is no hope for me. It needs to be a push into some more reasonable [sighs and gasps] understanding

00:57:01
and then do the action because sometimes in words they say something like this but the action is not there. These are my five sense but we are almost at the Okay. So, are we doing checkouts? Okay. I wish everybody a good two weeks and uh look forward to seeing you again. Um yeah. Uh hopefully nobody none of our icons die in the next two weeks. Hopefully everybody stays well and uh I’ll pass it on to uh Mona. uh already had my check out, but still uh I’m looking forward to people getting and becoming more reasonable.

00:58:10[gasps] Let’s hope the best and if not oppose. Uh yeah. Okay. I check out will be I’m just the song that just immediately came to mind was teach your children well and that’s what we can do. It’s you know for those of you who have more than um your immediate children or don’t have children just teach children well whether it’s a village doing it or through casual relationships but um two weeks from now we will be leaving Vancouver having visited our son and daughter-in-law and daughter for 5 days.

00:58:54
So, I will hope to join you because hopefully they don’t have an early flight, but if not, um we’ll catch up to you some other time. Yeah, it’s been interesting this call kind of like how to be human. I think we we did that. not not more like how how to do it but just being it. [snorts] Um yeah and um if there was a misunderstanding I didn’t mean that normal like crawling and don’t get what you want is a trauma. Uh um I was just vice versa. I said trauma will end up in the body and um will

00:59:52
shrink our possibility to self-expression and not I mean the normal things in life that [laughter] otherwise it wouldn’t be healthy if if they didn’t had to overcome challenges. So if that was a misunderstanding I want to clear that. Yep. I’m happy to have met you and uh meet you after the after the celebration, isn’t it? >> Yeah. And you will be here. So hopefully we have time to to come into the into the call ourselves. So >> yeah. >> So in case we are not here uh but I

01:00:35
think we will uh you come in and >> we are busy. >> Yeah. [laughter] And just just talk. Yeah. I’m I’m grateful that you are here and that we can talk in this way because it’s really rare. Um not to be offended by somebody else’s ideas. That’s really really really rare and I very much appreciate that. And yeah, that’s work for keeping our freedom despite loving and doing our work. That would be my check out. >> Have a wonderful celebration, Heidi. >> Thank you.

01:01:15
>> Have a good time. >> Byebye. >> All the best.